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Unread 04-05-2021, 10:25 AM   #1
banjomike
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Default The First Test Trials Luger reunited with the Ideal Stock

The Ideal test stock has been reunited with the original Luger #5673. The stock was discovered in Jan. 2021 in Chocorua, a small town in NH. It came from an estate of a very wealthy gentleman who,s family owned a famous name coffee company. All firearms were removed and many years later a barn on the property was found loaded with rare ammo and accessories to other firearms. At this time the purchaser of the load offered me the Ideal Luger stock. Seeing the U.S. Property marks and a flaming bomb on the stock and also the serial numbers 5673 I wondered if it had anything to do with the Trials Lugers. I have a large number of WW! and WW!! PO8s including several American Eagle models. I then contacted the Luger Forum and that is the beginning of the reuniting of the 2 pieces. It will now be up to Col. Mark Rendina to finish the story and post pictures. I would like to that all who chimed in including the naysayers who thinks it,s a fake. Banjomike AKA Mike Hashem Old Post Office Antiques, Ossipee NH
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Unread 04-05-2021, 04:29 PM   #2
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As I stated, you never know.

What is known and what is not known of early luger happenings at a depot, or department of the army is unknown. Wanting some proof is not being a naysayer. I doubt many things because i have seen some very nice fakes in the luger world.
1. I have seen a good friend of mine make an exact copy of a ideal stock - almost impossible to tell from an original.
2. I have seen fantasy pieces made for fun, but years later they are touted as real.
3. I have seen a very nice Argentine crest on a luger that we know was faked, and many others like it.

Fakes have been coming out of the wood work for 50 years, they simply have.
I don't think pictures are very hard to master if you want to do it (I am 61, so no, I did not grow up with computers)
..
.
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Unread 04-05-2021, 05:12 PM   #3
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And that is 'bang on' wisdom Ed.
I have a favorite saying that I use for these situations.

"Every coin has 2 sides AND an edge !! The truth usually resides on the edge."
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Unread 04-05-2021, 10:59 PM   #4
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As Mike states, the 1900 luger serial no 5673 (with Ideal Grips) was separated long ago.
Luger found at auction in 2013.
This ideal Stock (mike's) was found only in Jan 2021...in the same geographic area of the original auction.
Mike is someone unknown to me....I do not believe he is a faker. The serial and bomb exactly match the luger (with period Serifs) covered by ancient patina as you will see in the photos when I post them. Out of town right now.
Since they were both separated long ago....a fake stock would have to be faked back in the 1900s when they got separated.
That clearly did not happen..since no one wants to fake a US test luger that had no value until..what the 1990s?
And they were both in separate ownership.....
Unless, as Mike said, the wealth family sold the guns in 2013 (when I got the luger) and all teh small part accessories were kept until sold recently.
The fact that 2 separate collectors unknown to each other found the original gun and stock, 8 years apart, speak to authenticity.

This forum exist primary to make discoveries like this.
How many lugers that sell for 100,000 bucks have any paperwork at all?????
How many lugers have any factory paperwork at all?????
I sold a "Royal" presentation 1902 carbine for 80K ....with no documentation at all.
?
Why? because it was original blue and looked like it was expected to look for bining real...but no one knows to what crowned head (letter "A") it belonged to....thats only speculation. Did not matter. 80K.
Proof of royal provenance????? zero.
Fact. So paperwork and documentation is not THE ONLY issue here...and its a false choice to demand paperwork on an early 1900 that otherwise perfectly fits the First US TEST characteristics and US property markings.

So you look at the blue. real close.
You look at the patina. Real close..under a scope.
You look at the period serial number in the correct range (pre-6200 test range). and you look at the 1900 era serifs with 120 year old halos.

Yep thats what we do.
And we keep an open mind.
Since anything else is an attempt to stifle speech and hate on fellow collectors...based on if you like the guy or not...fellow collectors who are honest, collecting for 40 years.... and stand more than a 50% chance of having found the first US test Luger.

So lets start again at the beginning of the logical process (since we are not going to find a document..so we have to use logic.).

First we have to read the only documents that exist on the First US Test...most people here skip this reading assignment. See them below...enjoy.
Second, it has to be a luger made before serial 6200 (the start of the 1000 test range).
Third it has to be a gun made after #5600 to fit into the correct production time range to arrive at Springfield Arms test site in April 1901.
Forth, the Test Luger should have several hammer blows (see document where it was stated that they hit the toggle several times in the function test!!!). I know..we all got a hammer. But not so fast!
Age from deformation cannot be faked..its a chemical process when the deformations change color only due to age. A deformation on a blued surface remains blue for the first 40 years.

A hammer blow made recently will not turn the blue brown. Only age does that. Gun has no value until say 1980s...when anyone thought to even look for it.

These Blows...about 20 ...show brown patina in bright light.

Fifth, if the gun and stock were separated long ago..and brought together separately from another independent collector"s efforts...then it speaks to authenticity. Was not my doing...Ron Wood had to contact me personally to say some guy found my stock etc.

Agreed we are only following logic here?

Serial number #5673 (photos below) fits these conditions exactly...
AND SHOULD THUS NOT BE DISMISSED OUT OF HAND WITH CONTEMPT.

With the discovery of the stock independently of my own efforts, IMHO establishes a more than 60% probably of being authentic.

I agree its not 100% proof...but is that even possible?????????????????

Bottom line??? It is a great find and no future book on lugers or US test trail can ever ignore the existence of 1900 Test #5673...especially now that its serialized stock has been found with the exact same fonts and "US PROPERTY" with extreme patina and authentic age.
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Unread 04-05-2021, 11:06 PM   #5
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More photos...stock photo to follow
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Last edited by whitehat; 04-12-2021 at 11:46 AM.
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Unread 04-06-2021, 07:55 AM   #6
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Awful lot of conjecture...
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Unread 04-06-2021, 02:13 PM   #7
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Default open mind!

I have been studying the pictures and am stuck right in the middle of, "can't be, and can be!" It all looks period correct, and is stamped rather well for a one shot deal? There are far better judges of originality than I, on this forum. The one thing that continually nags me to this point is logistics? If the gun is a pre test serial range prototype, and made and numbered in Germany, how does it end up with the Ideal grips (made in the US!) sporting a matching serial number in the correct, identical DWM font? That would mean, prior to subjection and shipping to the US military a request and procurement order as to the availability of the Idea set would be necessary? Also, if somehow numbered in Germany, then why the flaming bomb ordinance mark? And, why so many? Lots to consider, more study needed... Still pretty neat all on it's own.... best to all, til....lat'r....GT One fact for sure: Idiots with hammers is not a recent new phenomena!!......
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Unread 04-06-2021, 03:02 PM   #8
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If they stamped the flaming bomb on the gun why did they only stamp US property on the grips?
Why didn't the the gun get stamped US property as well?
It looks like the same bomb stamp was used on the grips and the gun.
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Unread 04-06-2021, 07:25 PM   #9
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Very interesting. Some more close up photos of the gun would be worthwhile. Frame and barrel serial numbers, stop lug, top of toggle train, inside original grips, as a suggestion.
What is that depression/mark on the left side of the frame, near the trigger return spring?
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Unread 04-06-2021, 09:18 PM   #10
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Why would the flaming bomb be "lazy" on the pistol but upright on the grips?
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Unread 04-06-2021, 09:39 PM   #11
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The font on the “US PROPERTY” looks less like tirn-of-the-century font on US small arms. I’m far from an expert, but using 19th century US arms and turn-of-the-century US arms, the fonts are generally serifed. Additionally, the letter cited references plates (i.e., illustrations.) Where are they? The could clear up some of the surrounding confusion. Likewise, I read the letter repeatedly but must have overlooked the bit about having to hammer on the toggle to get the action closed. (I further note that no photos of the hammering marks are provided.)
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Unread 04-06-2021, 11:08 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Wood View Post
They were patented in 1901 but weren't produced until 1904, and then only for about a year before going defunct.
Ron

Just wondering...How is it possible for the ordinance dept. to procure a stock in 1900, before the trials, if they weren't produced until 1904? The only possibility would be if it were a prototype.
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Unread 04-12-2021, 11:43 AM   #13
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Ok here are the photos of the US test Eagle stock. First time I had my hands on it. Photos clearly show period sherifs of the 1900 era. Halos around all stamp deformations. Age looks absolutely authentic.

(I think that Mike cleaned a little too hard over the numbers....when he got the stock....to read the numbers...but you still can see the age halos
1) gun was not stamped in Germany..was stamped by Springfield armory when they asked to see one of those New fangled Ideal stocks...made for Calvary types.... like them. And yes it was in the 1903-4 period AFTER THE TEST...why? Well...lets see...I GUESS.....They KEPT THE GUN And did not throw it in the trash can! Of course it was on hand for further tests etc.
2) Serifs of the 1900 period are present...so thats a fact to be seen. THese are America style...not european fonts added to grips, stock and mag. The gun has DWM fonts.
3) Sure its conjecture...thanks for that kindness...Not a nice generalization. Without document everything is conjecture...so we have to go off the metal marks and proofs....Like all LUGERS!...how many posts here are based on conjecture over metal proofs..about all of them? Trying to keep my cool here guys.
40 Kind suggestion: Be glad you have these photos and gun to look at....would the forum not want to find a discovery like this?...just because you dont like the guy that discovered it...or his exasperation over honest logic?). Man, cant even get a hand up out of a hole.

I know no one is going to be convinced...because I am not in the club. But its real and this is a great find now that the matched stock has been found.

Even if you dont think its one of the first 2 US test guns listed in Springfield paper above...it a great US military historical find..since its clearly owned and tested by Springfield armory...AT SOME TIME!!!

And if dont think this is one of the 2 test guns..then FACT: there is another 1900 luger with Springfield Armory markings out there in the 5600 range...see my point....see how silly this is?

Anyway I am too old to fight over bull****. I talked with Ron Wood by phone....he said he has more confidence now that the stock has been found with the exact same 1900 era serifs and age halos.

That enough for me.

Just want to document that Mike and I found them both and brought them together again after 120 years! (and from the same Estate in NH). Found gun in 2013 at Omaskgee auction....(with no mention what was under the grips) and mike found the stock at the estate of a famous soup family in NH.

This should be a cause for celebration....not hate.
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Unread 04-12-2021, 12:04 PM   #14
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Mark, Glad you got it and it all came together for you, But can I point out some crazy thinking here? There IS NO CLUB. All of the members who have taken their time to look and comment should be respected as individuals with opinions. No one is conspiring against you. Hate. What dark hole did you drag that out of? I have followed this thread closely and for you to suggest it, much less put it in print, is insulting. `I can't say about the forensics of your find but this part is nutty dude. Pretty sure you should apologize to everyone involved, correct your frame of mind and get back to the business at hand.
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Unread 04-12-2021, 12:07 PM   #15
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Jerry...I could not believe it when you made that comment...wow such rasping for straws of hate.......
do you think they would care which way they found a place to make a clear strike of the flaming bomb...up or horizontal? Seriously. The 1900 wasnt a gun for any gov inspector to pass on a production line..no regulations for proofs on a foreign-made arm. So my pin still stays up...that argument does not fly as a serious comment.

They just didnt want it to get carried off..and it was anyway.

Even if you dont think this was the first US test gun...fact: there is another 1900 in the same serial range of 5600 with US property marks on it. And I think thats a valid point...a very big elephant in the room.

You guys are all on record when the docs come out. Thanks for the support as always.
You would think there would be some open-minded celebration....not comments that are not the result of going to the bottom of the hate barrel.

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Unread 04-12-2021, 12:17 PM   #16
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There should be celebration on this fourm this item has been found with the original stock..and even if you dont want to think its the first us test......and some positive comments...not just the most reaching negativity I have ever seen in my life..and this is what people say who have contacted my personally on this forum.
They said they are afraid to come out and contradict you guys....because they said its clearly personality driven. I guess you guys cant see your self.

I see myself....I know I am prejudiced..I have sen and know what I see....and so has mike...and everyone that has seen the actual metal.

I dont mind the disagrement..I just dont like the snide nastiness and not mixing doubt with positive comments.....yes that offensive and unfriendly action.
My proof? A friendly open minded forum would say.
"Well I dont like this...cant figure that out....
But A, B, and C sure look good".
Thanks for the effort! Keep it up...thanks for sharing.
We all love to research Lugers...thansk for the photos."

You know..an open mind.

Fact. If you dont think this is the US Test then there is one Giant elephant in the room fact here: There is another 1900 in the 5600 range that has US Springfield marking on it.
See how desperate the negative position is becoming?
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Unread 04-12-2021, 12:25 PM   #17
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Paranoia will destroy ya. Make your case, but if you continue with this negative thinking and statements about the forum members and this site it will NOT be tolerated. It seems you are not perceiving the accolades you think you deserve and are resentful. Suck it up buttercup. It's a discussion forum. There is no club and no hate. Quit being a nutter.
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Unread 04-12-2021, 12:50 PM   #18
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So you agree that your comment about an up or down flaming bomb strike on an accessory was not relevant or vital? Thats my point...and to avoid the point is to prove my point.

And making personal attacks snd name-calling make you teh abusive party....I never called anyone a nutter..or a buttercup.....so yes this personal form of attack should stop..and again prove my point about teh presence of personal animosity.

Why do you resort to name-calling (nutter and buttercup) when you want to make a comment to me? Did I call you a personal name?

I am especially upset since the personalities involved totally obscure the great discovery that has been made here.

I have asked Ron Wood to moderate this since he has called me several times on the comments I have gotten on this stock and US test ISSUE.
Ron wood is the nice guy that told me to try to get it..or I would have let it pass...

To answer the guys (and Albert) writing to me wanting to see the unfired Krieghoff I got at Tulsa this weekend...here it is. Russ from Morphys said he tried to buy this exact 2 matched mag Krieghoff at the Las Vegas show 20 years ago...guy would not sell. They sold his estate at Tulsa this weekend.

Note: You cant see the "P" on the front..but its the rare commercail serial range P1100-1200
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Unread 04-12-2021, 01:17 PM   #19
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Parts of your pistol looks refinished and what makes you think those are krieghoff magazines?
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Unread 04-12-2021, 01:56 PM   #20
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Mark, your writing sounds more like Albert than I remember you sounding.
I saw this first on Jans forum and Albert wrote a lot - he has an attacking personality - which is very wearing and yes, I think prejudiced the postings of this find.
I am skeptical of new, wonderful finds. I was very excited to see the 45 luger carbine that Ralph Shattuck showed me, it seemed real to me and I was sorely disappointed to be told it was fake.
---
Mark, I am not saying that these are fake, in fact I think its a cool find. I do remember reading about them a number of years ago, then the stock shows up.
I have no problem with it being a prototype or even a later addition. I just find the US marking odd - doesn't mean it isn't correct, just odd. I have letter dies that were my grandfathers, he 'picked them up' while in service (he was a supply officer), again, not saying it is faked, simply that a unit armorer or even a commission could have told them to mark it as it was taken into service.
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