1912 Erfurt questions

rockman96 · 12-23-2011, 10:36 AM

Hello, new member and new Luger owner here. I finally got myself a P08 after years of procrastinating, it is a 1912 Erfurt in 9mm that appears to be matching with the exception of the mag (but it is the wood bottom), and the take-down. I have been going through threads here and at Jan C Still Luger site, but haven't found specific info I'm looking for.

1) What does a lack of markings on the front strap indicate? I see a lot of these guns with regimental markings, mine has none...does this mean it did not see duty?

2) What is the significance in these proof marks?

3) I saw someone post about the "broken crown" guns....mine seems to be one of these. Good, bad, or ugly?

4) What do you think the the two spots in the receiver (above the mag release) are from?

5) What would you consider an upper price-stop on this P08? Curious if I got a decent deal, or overpaid.

Thanks for any info and insight. Great site!

rockman96 · 12-23-2011, 10:40 AM

Also, on the underside of the barrel (between the s/n on the barrel, and the receiver) it is stamped with what appears to be: 8, 33

What is this? *Nevermind, I found this....diameter of the lands

ETA: It came with an old worn holster. The only marking I can find on it is inside the flap....it is a number inside a rectangular box: xx30, where the xx looks like it could be CR, but I really can't make it out for sure.

lugerholsterrepair · 12-23-2011, 10:57 AM

Also, on the underside of the barrel (between the s/n on the barrel, and the receiver) it is stamped with what appears to be: 8, 33

Lands and groove diameter.

1) What does a lack of markings on the front strap indicate? I see a lot of these guns with regimental markings, mine has none...does this mean it did not see duty?
No..This pistol has guite a duty history..First Army then Police. Front grip strap markings are unit marks. This pistol was just never unit marked.

What does the magazine look like?

assesing a value is difficult without knowing a lot more. Bore condition? matching? Lots of questions..

What did you pay?

rockman96 · 12-23-2011, 11:30 AM

Hey, thanks! The bore is good....rifling is good, no pitting, and with light frosting.
The numbers match except: no number on the takedown lever, and the mag number does not match.

You asked about the mag:

Edward Tinker · 12-23-2011, 11:42 AM

SEE BELOW

1) What does a lack of markings on the front strap indicate? I see a lot of these guns with regimental markings, mine has none...does this mean it did not see duty? MOST WERE NOT MARKED

2) What is the significance in these proof marks? SEE FAQ TO LEARN ABOUT ACCEPTANCE AND PROOF MARKINGS - ESSENTIALLY IT SHOWS THAT IT WAS ACCEPTED BY THE MILITARY FOR USE

3) I saw someone post about the "broken crown" guns....mine seems to be one of these. Good, bad, or ugly? JUST A FACT OF LIFE IN MANUFACTURING

4) What do you think the the two spots in the receiver (above the mag release) are from? WHO KNOWS.....

5) What would you consider an upper price-stop on this P08? Curious if I got a decent deal, or overpaid. how much did you pay?

alanint · 12-23-2011, 11:45 AM

Welcome to the forum!
Your pistol has a modern, Mauser made takedown lever. It is not an original military unit. I also believe that your sideplate has been scrubbed and force matched to the gun. Notice the telltale machining line near the right, upper side of the sideplate hump as well as the number "55" in a different font than the numbers on the side of the receiver.
It may just be me or the photo, but your trigger also looks odd. It appears to have been bent. It almost looks like the trigger on the original .45 ACP Lugers.
Your pistol once had a magazine safety as well, as the grips are cut for them.
With all these potential issues, I hope you did not overpay for this gun.

Don M · 12-23-2011, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockman96

4) What do you think the the two spots in the receiver (above the mag release) are from?

Your pistol once had a Walther magazine safety installed about 1934. Part of this modification involved cutting a slot in the frame (not receiver) above the left grip. These devices did not work well and were ordered disabled or removed in 1937. Yours was removed and the slot filled in. The two spots appear to be the result of grinding or buffing to smooth the fill.

rockman96 · 12-23-2011, 09:53 PM

Thank you for the info so far. I found out a while ago that the pivot pin(?) at the rear of the toggle has a mis-matched number on it too. So, I definitely won't have reservation about shooting it now.

I had a gunsmith look at it today, he rated the bore as good-very good. In fact he is the one that saw the pivot pin didn't match.

My primary goal was to find a clean early example in 9mm with military markings, that I could shoot occasionally without hurting the value too much. It appears I've been successful in that. So what is a price range that is fair for this pistol, knowing what you know about it...short comings and all?

I don't suppose the holster helps any, since it is missing the strap?

Norme · 12-23-2011, 10:23 PM

Hi Dave, Your 1912 Erfurt has had a long history. Despite the shortcomings mentioned, it's an interesting gun and looks to be in decent shape. The rear toggle axles on 1912 Erfurts were unnumbered, but were stamped with the Erfurt test eagle, as shown in the photo. The holster, which I think dates from Imperial times, is worth repairing. Jerry Burney, here on the forum, can replace both the closure and pull-up straps. Can you post photos of the back of the holster and the marking inside the cover? Also, do the grip screws have inspection marks on them. Regards, Norm

lugerholsterrepair · 12-23-2011, 10:28 PM

Dave..Hard to say what you might mean about a pivot pin..If you are talking about the pin at the rear of the pistol that holds on the toggle then it is not supposed to match... Norm is correct....no number but stamped with the Erfurt test eagle.

The holster is not missing one strap but two. The closure strap of course but also the pull-up strap is missing. It goes in the small slot on the right in the holster body.

Do you have a photo of the back of the holster?

MFC · 12-23-2011, 10:47 PM

Hi Dave,
Don't use the nice military mag for shooting and don't slam it in the gun. Given it's age, the wood can be very brittle. The mag alone is worth around $150. Buy a Mec Gar mag for shooting.

rockman96 · 12-23-2011, 10:57 PM

Yes, that is the pin I was talking about....it is definitely stamped with a non matching number:

The back of the holster:

The inside flap and what is left of the number....the last two characters are '30', not sure about the first two...looks like 'CR30' to me:

rockman96 · 12-23-2011, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFC

Hi Dave,
Don't use the nice military mag for shooting and don't slam it in the gun. Given it's age, the wood can be very brittle. The mag alone is worth around $150. Buy a Mec Gar mag for shooting.

That's exactly what I did! Thanks!

lugerholsterrepair · 12-23-2011, 11:16 PM

Dave..I have an imperial Army pistol here that was worked over by Mauser after the war and the toggle pin was numbered to the pistol. So was the fireing pin.

Your holster is a decent one and worthy of restoration.

Norme · 12-23-2011, 11:23 PM

Hi Dave, Your holster dates from 1912 or earlier and is in great shape considering it's age. If it were mine I would certainly have Jerry replace those missing straps. The ink stamp inside the lid looks to be a unit mark, it's too bad that I can't make out that first letter. Regards, Norm

rockman96 · 12-23-2011, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norme

Hi Dave, Your 1912 Erfurt has had a long history. Despite the shortcomings mentioned, it's an interesting gun and looks to be in decent shape.

Also, do the grip screws have inspection marks on them. Regards, Norm

Thanks Norm....Are you deriving the "long history" from the proofing, or from it being a 1912 Erfurt with some repairs? I just made out a check and envelope to Jan for his 'Central Powers' book, hopefully between that and forum searches I'll learn more without having to bug you guys too much.

I forgot about your question regarding grip screws until just now, so here is another pic....only one screw is stamped, the other is plain but it looks like it belongs on the gun age and finish-wise:

Norme · 12-23-2011, 11:44 PM

Hi Dave, Apart from being 100 years old, your gun saw service in both WW1 and in the Weimar Republic, when it was modified for the police. Erfurts manufactured prior to 1916 had inspection marked grip screws, and these are very desirable. I don't know what to make of the S stamped on yours, perhaps someone else knows? Regards, Norm

12-23-2011, 10:36 AM	#1
rockman96 User Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	1912 Erfurt questions Hello, new member and new Luger owner here. I finally got myself a P08 after years of procrastinating, it is a 1912 Erfurt in 9mm that appears to be matching with the exception of the mag (but it is the wood bottom), and the take-down. I have been going through threads here and at Jan C Still Luger site, but haven't found specific info I'm looking for. 1) What does a lack of markings on the front strap indicate? I see a lot of these guns with regimental markings, mine has none...does this mean it did not see duty? 2) What is the significance in these proof marks? 3) I saw someone post about the "broken crown" guns....mine seems to be one of these. Good, bad, or ugly? 4) What do you think the the two spots in the receiver (above the mag release) are from? 5) What would you consider an upper price-stop on this P08? Curious if I got a decent deal, or overpaid. Thanks for any info and insight. Great site!

12-23-2011, 10:40 AM	#2
rockman96 User Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Also, on the underside of the barrel (between the s/n on the barrel, and the receiver) it is stamped with what appears to be: 8, 33 What is this? Nevermind, I found this....diameter of the lands ETA: It came with an old worn holster. The only marking I can find on it is inside the flap....it is a number inside a rectangular box: xx30, where the xx looks like it could be CR, but I really can't make it out for sure. Last edited by rockman96; 12-23-2011 at 10:58 AM. Reason: Q on holster marking*

12-23-2011, 10:57 AM	#3
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,761 Thanks: 4,863 Thanked 3,101 Times in 1,427 Posts	Also, on the underside of the barrel (between the s/n on the barrel, and the receiver) it is stamped with what appears to be: 8, 33 Lands and groove diameter. 1) What does a lack of markings on the front strap indicate? I see a lot of these guns with regimental markings, mine has none...does this mean it did not see duty? No..This pistol has guite a duty history..First Army then Police. Front grip strap markings are unit marks. This pistol was just never unit marked. What does the magazine look like? assesing a value is difficult without knowing a lot more. Bore condition? matching? Lots of questions.. What did you pay? __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-23-2011, 11:42 AM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	SEE BELOW 1) What does a lack of markings on the front strap indicate? I see a lot of these guns with regimental markings, mine has none...does this mean it did not see duty? MOST WERE NOT MARKED 2) What is the significance in these proof marks? SEE FAQ TO LEARN ABOUT ACCEPTANCE AND PROOF MARKINGS - ESSENTIALLY IT SHOWS THAT IT WAS ACCEPTED BY THE MILITARY FOR USE 3) I saw someone post about the "broken crown" guns....mine seems to be one of these. Good, bad, or ugly? JUST A FACT OF LIFE IN MANUFACTURING 4) What do you think the the two spots in the receiver (above the mag release) are from? WHO KNOWS..... 5) What would you consider an upper price-stop on this P08? Curious if I got a decent deal, or overpaid. how much did you pay? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-23-2011, 10:23 PM	#9
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,415 Thanks: 225 Thanked 2,593 Times in 931 Posts	Hi Dave, Your 1912 Erfurt has had a long history. Despite the shortcomings mentioned, it's an interesting gun and looks to be in decent shape. The rear toggle axles on 1912 Erfurts were unnumbered, but were stamped with the Erfurt test eagle, as shown in the photo. The holster, which I think dates from Imperial times, is worth repairing. Jerry Burney, here on the forum, can replace both the closure and pull-up straps. Can you post photos of the back of the holster and the marking inside the cover? Also, do the grip screws have inspection marks on them. Regards, Norm Attached Thumbnails

12-23-2011, 11:30 AM	#4
rockman96 User Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hey, thanks! The bore is good....rifling is good, no pitting, and with light frosting. The numbers match except: no number on the takedown lever, and the mag number does not match. You asked about the mag:

12-23-2011, 11:45 AM	#6
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Welcome to the forum! Your pistol has a modern, Mauser made takedown lever. It is not an original military unit. I also believe that your sideplate has been scrubbed and force matched to the gun. Notice the telltale machining line near the right, upper side of the sideplate hump as well as the number "55" in a different font than the numbers on the side of the receiver. It may just be me or the photo, but your trigger also looks odd. It appears to have been bent. It almost looks like the trigger on the original .45 ACP Lugers. Your pistol once had a magazine safety as well, as the grips are cut for them. With all these potential issues, I hope you did not overpay for this gun.

12-23-2011, 09:53 PM	#8
rockman96 User Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thank you for the info so far. I found out a while ago that the pivot pin(?) at the rear of the toggle has a mis-matched number on it too. So, I definitely won't have reservation about shooting it now. I had a gunsmith look at it today, he rated the bore as good-very good. In fact he is the one that saw the pivot pin didn't match. My primary goal was to find a clean early example in 9mm with military markings, that I could shoot occasionally without hurting the value too much. It appears I've been successful in that. So what is a price range that is fair for this pistol, knowing what you know about it...short comings and all? I don't suppose the holster helps any, since it is missing the strap?

12-23-2011, 10:28 PM	#10
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,761 Thanks: 4,863 Thanked 3,101 Times in 1,427 Posts	Dave..Hard to say what you might mean about a pivot pin..If you are talking about the pin at the rear of the pistol that holds on the toggle then it is not supposed to match... Norm is correct....no number but stamped with the Erfurt test eagle. The holster is not missing one strap but two. The closure strap of course but also the pull-up strap is missing. It goes in the small slot on the right in the holster body. Do you have a photo of the back of the holster? __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-23-2011, 10:47 PM	#11
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Hi Dave, Don't use the nice military mag for shooting and don't slam it in the gun. Given it's age, the wood can be very brittle. The mag alone is worth around $150. Buy a Mec Gar mag for shooting. __________________ Mike C.

12-23-2011, 10:57 PM	#12
rockman96 User Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Yes, that is the pin I was talking about....it is definitely stamped with a non matching number: The back of the holster: The inside flap and what is left of the number....the last two characters are '30', not sure about the first two...looks like 'CR30' to me:

12-23-2011, 11:16 PM	#14
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,761 Thanks: 4,863 Thanked 3,101 Times in 1,427 Posts	Dave..I have an imperial Army pistol here that was worked over by Mauser after the war and the toggle pin was numbered to the pistol. So was the fireing pin. Your holster is a decent one and worthy of restoration. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know." Last edited by lugerholsterrepair; 12-24-2011 at 12:10 AM.

12-23-2011, 11:23 PM	#15
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,415 Thanks: 225 Thanked 2,593 Times in 931 Posts	Hi Dave, Your holster dates from 1912 or earlier and is in great shape considering it's age. If it were mine I would certainly have Jerry replace those missing straps. The ink stamp inside the lid looks to be a unit mark, it's too bad that I can't make out that first letter. Regards, Norm

12-23-2011, 11:44 PM	#17
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,415 Thanks: 225 Thanked 2,593 Times in 931 Posts	Hi Dave, Apart from being 100 years old, your gun saw service in both WW1 and in the Weimar Republic, when it was modified for the police. Erfurts manufactured prior to 1916 had inspection marked grip screws, and these are very desirable. I don't know what to make of the S stamped on yours, perhaps someone else knows? Regards, Norm