Borchardt Magazine

[Big Norm]

I recently purchased a Borchardt mag. Every thing seems to correspond
to Borchardt magazines that I have seen or which I currently own. That is, except
for the size of the serial number on the wood bottom. The number size is approximately
half the size of my Borchardt mag in the gun that I own, which is about the size of
the numbering on a navy mag. The direction and location is proper only the size is
different. I can find nothing in my books that discuss or even shows the bottom
numbering of the magazine. Is this size numbering proper? Since the serial number is only
a three digit number, would this be a magazine for a Loewes Borchardt?
Big Norm

[LU1900]

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[Big Norm]

Thank you Pat,
It took me a while to find a cm ruler in my house. Your measurements correspond to my measurements as far as I can tell. Those mm marks on my ruler are very small for my old eyes. So at least I am not alone in having two different sizes of serial numbers on my two Borchardt mags. Since your larger sized serial number belongs to the smaller serial number and my serial number/number size is opposite to yours, I am assuming that the size of the serial number stamping was probably random. In any case, it sorta confirms in my mind that my newly acquired Borchardt magazine with the 2,5mm numbers is original and correct.

Here is how it currently breaks down:

Big Norm...................vs......Pat
Ser # 552 = 2,5mm...........Ser #1174 = 4mm

Ser #1966 = 4mm.............Ser # 2173 = 2,5mm

Again... thank you, Big Norm

[David Eash]

Hi
I have 13 Borchardt mags all have 4mm numbers and never seen any 2.5mm

Regards Dave

[Ron Wood]

Dave,
I think it pretty much depends on how deeply the numbers are struck. The same die can appear to produce a number from 2.5mm to 3.0mm+. My Borchardt mag numbers appear to be a solid 3mm. Your measurement of 4mm falls in line with Pat's and Norms measurements. It would seem that there is a 1.5mm variance with the median falling around 3mm or so. I would be hesitant to reject a magazine with numbers falling between 2.5mm to 4mm if all other characteristics were good. You are my primary resource for Borchardt info, so I would greatly appreciate your assesment of what can be accepted.
Thanks,
Ron

[Big Norm]

Ron and Dave,
thank you or your input. I had a little more time to measure my two Borchardt magazines and have found that the 4mm and the 2.5mm measurements are correct in size. Visually, the finish on the wood is good. I placed a straight edge on the smaller sized wood bottom and no wood has been removed from the bottom of either magazine. The holding pin does not appear to have been ever removed.

Both of my magazines fit nicely into my DWM Borchardt. The only other difference is that magazine #1968 has its pan miter blued while magazine #552 is chromed.

Dave, you wouldn't happen to have magazine #2051 among all your magazines would you? Thats the number on my Borchardt.
Big Norm

[LU1900]

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[Lugers down under]

If it is of any interest,
I only own four Borchardt magazines, one for the gun and three for the carry case.
My numbers and size are as follows;
478 approx 2.5mm
496 approx 2.5mm
680 approx 2.5mm
3015 approx 4.0mm

I might add that I cannot see how a 2.5mm die could produce such a larger number as 3015 for not only are the numbers taller they are also correspondingly wider and thus produce a much larger size number group overall. This is evident in the photos posted above.

Sadly I do not own a matching magazine for the gun which is #315.

Regards

Murray

[Big Norm]

Hum-m-m It looks like I opened a can of worms here. My serial #1966 appears to be slightly smaller than Pats large in size number (1774) and my serial #552 seems to be slightly larger than his smaller in size serial number (2173). It does not look like his numbers have been altered either. I am close, but different. I'm sure happy to have Ron Wood sort this one out. But Pats physical mags look as original as mine does. It looks like I will have to break out that digital camera I got myself for Christmas so that I can do as good a job as Pat did with his camera.

Incidently, my serial numbers go the same direction as Jims.
Big Norm

[Lugers down under]

Norm,
I would aggree with you that there is a slight variation in the size of the smaller 2.5 mm numbers. I measured mine with a digital metric vernier,
We thankfully still use both systems down here, imperial and metric and can be a pain in the toggle sometimes.
My 2.5mm numbers vary from 2.5mm to about 2.75mm and seem to correspond to the depth of the number in the wood which would figure.

They are nothing like the larger 4mm numbers however,

While on the subject of "pain in the toggle" I have recently had to sacrfice my dream of owning a nice 1902 Carbine as the money got spent on a new left hand toggle middle link. A new bionic titanium and teflon knee, only 3 weeks post opp and now walking around without crutches and climbing stairs, but, hell, I think I still would have prefered the carbine.
Regards
Murray.

[Big Norm]

Murray,
don't worry about getting another carbine. You'll find another. But there is only one Murray and more people around here need you to get on the forum from time to time. Get well soon good buddy.
Big Norm

[David Eash]

Norm
I apoloize I though 4mm was the right number I got out my verniers and check each of my mags they measure between .130 and .140 which is about 3.5mm most were loewe 2 were DWM,sorry I dont 2051 is that the number of your Borchardt?

Regards Dave Eash

[Big Norm]

Dave,
yes, DWM Borchardt serial #2051 is my baby.
Big Norm

[David Eash]

Thanks Norm
I have been collecting Borchardt sn for 15 years and have 347 numbers I haven't been keeping up on it the last couple of yeas is your gun cased?

Regards Dave Eash

[Big Norm]

Dave,
My gun is not cased. The cased Borchardts go for just too much money. I almost wavered and bought a cased DWM that had an offfer price of $25,000. I thought that maybe I could bat my sad, big blue eyes at the guy and get him down to maybe $20,000. But I took another swig of my coffee and regained my senses. The interesting thing about this set was that it had the rare oil can and it had five (5), mismatched to the gun, magazines. Two of those five magazines had the same serial number.

I ran into the same guy at another gun show and he still had the same cased set but three of the magazines were gone. I can't remember if the oil can was gone too. But his price was still $25,000. I didn't think that the gun was better than mine and with the magazines gone, I was less interested. Oh well, you snooze...you lose. When you look at a $25,000 gun that you can't shoot, your perspective changes a bit.

But my Borchardt has a stock, cheek piece, holster and straps. The strap for holding the nose of the holster to the neck of the stock has been replaced with a black velcore strap. But otherwise the straps are well worn, but there. The holster is pretty good. I have found a hold open mag and continue to look for the rest of the accessories, including the mags for my gun. Maybe, in my lifetime, I will be able to put a full set together. Thats part of the fun in collecting.

OH, I almost forgot. My stock and cheek piece are not numbered,
Big Norm

[David Eash]

Norm

The stock and cheek piece were not numberd on DWM guns. Thanks for the info,

Regsrds Dave

[LU1900]

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[Big Norm]

Pat,
from what I understand, the cheek piece was an item that broke very easily by the 'hold on' pin. Also, from what I understand, DWM did follow through with the Loewe practice of numbering the cheek piece and stock when they first started producing the Borchardt. But they quickly abandoned the practice. I have never knowingly seen a repro check piece. But from pictures in adverizements that I have seen a long time ago, they looked pretty good.

I once talked to an import/export person from England and he said that Borchardts with cased sets are much more common in the UK and Europe than in the USA. Perhaps, because of the mirad of different laws in those communities, it would be easier to collect a 1893 pistol. With that in mind, you might have an easier time finding the part that you are looking for in your part of the world. Just my guess.

I talked to some gun people from Canada and I got the same impression. It seems that 1895 is a cut off between a modern pistol and an antique pistol there. My friends from Canada got excited when they found out that the Borchardt was an 1893 pistol and, therefore, an official antique in Canada.
Big Norm

[LU1900]

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[Big Norm]

Pat,
It will be hard, if not impossible, to find someone who will separate a cheek piece from their stock or cased set. But the world is a big place and anything is possible. For instance, stocks do get broken or lost too. The cheek piece is no good without the stock. Likely...no. Possible...yes. But repros can be found if you search hard enough and get lucky.
Big Norm