Reichsbahn Lugers

TJ · 01-18-2002, 11:57 PM

I was wondering if the Deutsche Reichsban had railway police and how would their Lugers been marked if they were issued such weapons. I noticed in tech section that there were lugers issued to the DR. I was just wondering who would have used them? Thanks in advance.

Herb · 01-19-2002, 01:33 PM

The railway did have their own police. the DR police dagger is a much sought after collectors item and is fairly rare. However I have not heard of a special Luger being issued to them that would have distinctive markings.

Herb · 01-19-2002, 02:00 PM

A little info on the dagger that might help in further research. The German government established the Bahnschutz, (railroad special protection force). The personnel were drawn from the railroad employees and were resopnsible for the protection of the railroads in time of war and civil disorder. The units were armed with rifles and machine guns and were charged with maintining law and order on railway property and in preventing larceny, espionage and sabotage.

There was also a distinctive called the Reichsbahn Wasserschutz Polizei (Railway Water Protection Police). Their mission was to provide security of the railroad facilities associated with harbors, canals and inland waterways. Their distinctive dagger was adoped in 1935 for the leaders of the Bahnschutzpolizei. It was nearly identical to the standard Army dagger. In 1938 a distinctive dagger was authorized which was different from the Army Dagger. On the hilt crossguard appeared the winged railway wheel insignia of the National Railway System. (looks very much like the Goodyear and the Ohio State Patrol winged wheel). If you come across a winged wheel proof on a luger this is probably what it would look like, if any exist. Hope this has been of some help. Info above is largely from Ltc Thomas M. Johnson's book, Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich, Volume 1.

TJ · 01-19-2002, 02:04 PM

Thanks Herb. I am familiar with the DR logo so I know what you are describing. I was wondering what markings may appear on the luger in the way of certain proofs ect. I figured they wouldnt actually stamp "DR" or the logo on to the gun, but what would set it apart from a Heer issue for example? Thanks again.

bill m · 01-19-2002, 03:49 PM

Hi,

There are police Luger holsters that have the "Bahnschutz" logo on the back. Benders book shows one and I have one. Both have the same markings and are dated 1933. As far as I am aware of, the Lugers were not marked in any specific way to tell that they were part of the railroad police.

Herb · 01-19-2002, 04:44 PM

TJ, I have been looking at Costanzo's book, World of Lugers and on pages 120 and 121 he describes several police proofs.

They are all an eagle with spread wings comprised of three lines each, the eagle is looking to it's right and is holding a swastica in a circle in it's feet. On the right side of the eagle and beginning about halfway up the circle with the swastica and to it's right appears a capitol letter. These letters represent the units to which they were issued. Big K=Komunel Polizei, C=Coln Polizei, F=Feldgendarmerie, L=Landespolizei. If a Reichsbahn luger was issued one would think, based upon the foregoing, that it would probably have this eagle with a R letter. Pure speculation on my part as I have never heard such a Luger or mark.

bill m · 01-19-2002, 05:08 PM

Hi Herb,

I think the Eagle K, C, F, and L are actually the police inspection stamp and have nothing to do with the units were they were issued.

Herb · 01-19-2002, 05:31 PM

Bill, I can't agree nor disagree, I just posted what I was able to find in Costanzo's book of proof marks. I have no idea if he has a clue or not. There are so many different marks on Lugers that It would take a lifetime to catalog them all and then who is left to tell us what they mean. At one time the Luger factories were turning out about 40,000 Lugers a month. Each factory had many inspectors with their own proof stamp, so on any given day over a thousand Lugers came out with different marks on them. Then there were the ones that had to be adjusted or for some reason didn't get off the line with the rest, these would have another stamp on them. Now we have the reworks or ones tha had to go back to be fixed, many to arsenals and yet another proof was applied--on and on. My 1921 DWM has three different eagle proofs on the right barrel frame, each having a different meaning. I wish I had the answers, I would be very popular and very rich.

01-19-2002, 07:37 PM

Thanks for the idea, guys. Since you collectors have been so receptive to all my faked up Lugers, I am now going to whip up a few properly marked "Railroad Lugers," so keep a sharp eye out for them, as they will soon be appearing at your local gun shows!

Thor · 01-19-2002, 07:38 PM

lol ~Thor~

Herb · 01-19-2002, 08:28 PM

Should bring a good price from the novice collector. I expect a reasonable 'cut' based upon the info.

01-19-2002, 10:15 PM

TJ, I believe that Herb is "chugging along alone on the right track". The only luger that I've owned that I'm sure was Reichsbahn, was a standard WW1 PO8 with the left grip branded with their winged wheel. No other Police markings. I could probably dig out the date and serial number, but I sold this one about 20 years ago. Wish that I still had it, but at that time it was just another PO8 to me. Tom h.

Herb · 01-19-2002, 10:59 PM

Chug, chug, chug, Whooo, Whoooo. All Aboard!!!

01-20-2002, 02:20 AM

Can anyone else confirm this or is my old memory unit failing?

Many years ago, there was a shipment of Browning 1910/22 pistols imported into the US from Europe that had GERMAN RAILROAD POLICE or REICHSBAHN POLICE stamped on them in English?

I think they were selling for about US$20 with a holster at the time?

The Shadow

tom · 01-20-2002, 02:50 AM

Shadow,

You are thinking of the ones marked "Bahn Polezi Western Zone"...I saw one FS last month at $250 or so in 95% condition. Cute little gun.

Hope this helps,

Tom

01-20-2002, 03:38 AM

You're right!

Many thanks!

Herb · 01-20-2002, 02:55 PM

More than you probably ever wanted to know about the subject

-- http://www.feldgrau.com/dreichsbahn.html -

http://home.earthlink.net/~davidbear (scroll down near the page bottom for links)

01-20-2002, 04:58 PM

In Virginia in 1996 there was a 7.65 commercial luger at a gun show that had R.B.D.Mg.xx on the grip strap in same style and location as on unit marked lugers of other types. The seller was Robert Lamb (Ã??ntique Arms Consultant) and he was selling it as a machine gun unit's luger. He is a nice guy, a vet, and a long time collector that was touting how doing his research (he has Costanzo, eg) enabled him to make such identifications. Although I don't know that I would employ him as an arms consultant, I often wonder if that was truly an Reichsbahn Directorate luger from the Magdeburg rail offices. Magdeburg, according to a German acquaintance, is an important rail hub.

TJ · 01-20-2002, 10:42 PM

Thanks all for the comments. I am a RR employee(Ich bin ein lokomotivfuhrer) so there is a cross over interest here. I have seen many US railroad police guns that were marked with the particular railroad they were used on, so the thought came to mind about the possibility of DR marked weapons. Thanks again.

01-18-2002, 11:57 PM	#1
TJ User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: SC Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Reichsbahn Lugers I was wondering if the Deutsche Reichsban had railway police and how would their Lugers been marked if they were issued such weapons. I noticed in tech section that there were lugers issued to the DR. I was just wondering who would have used them? Thanks in advance.

01-19-2002, 01:33 PM	#2
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Reichsbahn Lugers The railway did have their own police. the DR police dagger is a much sought after collectors item and is fairly rare. However I have not heard of a special Luger being issued to them that would have distinctive markings.

01-19-2002, 02:00 PM	#3
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Reichsbahn Lugers A little info on the dagger that might help in further research. The German government established the Bahnschutz, (railroad special protection force). The personnel were drawn from the railroad employees and were resopnsible for the protection of the railroads in time of war and civil disorder. The units were armed with rifles and machine guns and were charged with maintining law and order on railway property and in preventing larceny, espionage and sabotage. There was also a distinctive called the Reichsbahn Wasserschutz Polizei (Railway Water Protection Police). Their mission was to provide security of the railroad facilities associated with harbors, canals and inland waterways. Their distinctive dagger was adoped in 1935 for the leaders of the Bahnschutzpolizei. It was nearly identical to the standard Army dagger. In 1938 a distinctive dagger was authorized which was different from the Army Dagger. On the hilt crossguard appeared the winged railway wheel insignia of the National Railway System. (looks very much like the Goodyear and the Ohio State Patrol winged wheel). If you come across a winged wheel proof on a luger this is probably what it would look like, if any exist. Hope this has been of some help. Info above is largely from Ltc Thomas M. Johnson's book, Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich, Volume 1.

01-19-2002, 02:04 PM	#4
TJ User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: SC Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Reichsbahn Lugers Thanks Herb. I am familiar with the DR logo so I know what you are describing. I was wondering what markings may appear on the luger in the way of certain proofs ect. I figured they wouldnt actually stamp "DR" or the logo on to the gun, but what would set it apart from a Heer issue for example? Thanks again.

01-19-2002, 03:49 PM	#5
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Railroad Luger Hi, There are police Luger holsters that have the "Bahnschutz" logo on the back. Benders book shows one and I have one. Both have the same markings and are dated 1933. As far as I am aware of, the Lugers were not marked in any specific way to tell that they were part of the railroad police.

01-19-2002, 04:44 PM	#6
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Reichsbahn Lugers TJ, I have been looking at Costanzo's book, World of Lugers and on pages 120 and 121 he describes several police proofs. They are all an eagle with spread wings comprised of three lines each, the eagle is looking to it's right and is holding a swastica in a circle in it's feet. On the right side of the eagle and beginning about halfway up the circle with the swastica and to it's right appears a capitol letter. These letters represent the units to which they were issued. Big K=Komunel Polizei, C=Coln Polizei, F=Feldgendarmerie, L=Landespolizei. If a Reichsbahn luger was issued one would think, based upon the foregoing, that it would probably have this eagle with a R letter. Pure speculation on my part as I have never heard such a Luger or mark.

01-19-2002, 05:08 PM	#7
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Reichsbahn Lugers Hi Herb, I think the Eagle K, C, F, and L are actually the police inspection stamp and have nothing to do with the units were they were issued.

01-19-2002, 05:31 PM	#8
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Reichsbahn Lugers Bill, I can't agree nor disagree, I just posted what I was able to find in Costanzo's book of proof marks. I have no idea if he has a clue or not. There are so many different marks on Lugers that It would take a lifetime to catalog them all and then who is left to tell us what they mean. At one time the Luger factories were turning out about 40,000 Lugers a month. Each factory had many inspectors with their own proof stamp, so on any given day over a thousand Lugers came out with different marks on them. Then there were the ones that had to be adjusted or for some reason didn't get off the line with the rest, these would have another stamp on them. Now we have the reworks or ones tha had to go back to be fixed, many to arsenals and yet another proof was applied--on and on. My 1921 DWM has three different eagle proofs on the right barrel frame, each having a different meaning. I wish I had the answers, I would be very popular and very rich.

01-19-2002, 07:37 PM	#9
Charles the master engraver Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Railroad Luger Thanks for the idea, guys. Since you collectors have been so receptive to all my faked up Lugers, I am now going to whip up a few properly marked "Railroad Lugers," so keep a sharp eye out for them, as they will soon be appearing at your local gun shows!

01-19-2002, 07:38 PM	#10
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Railroad Luger lol ~Thor~

01-19-2002, 08:28 PM	#11
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Railroad Luger Should bring a good price from the novice collector. I expect a reasonable 'cut' based upon the info.

01-19-2002, 10:15 PM	#12
tom h Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Railroad Luger TJ, I believe that Herb is "chugging along alone on the right track". The only luger that I've owned that I'm sure was Reichsbahn, was a standard WW1 PO8 with the left grip branded with their winged wheel. No other Police markings. I could probably dig out the date and serial number, but I sold this one about 20 years ago. Wish that I still had it, but at that time it was just another PO8 to me. Tom h.

01-19-2002, 10:59 PM	#13
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Railroad Luger Chug, chug, chug, Whooo, Whoooo. All Aboard!!!

01-20-2002, 02:20 AM	#14
the Shadow Knows Guest Posts: n/a	Reichsbahn Can anyone else confirm this or is my old memory unit failing? Many years ago, there was a shipment of Browning 1910/22 pistols imported into the US from Europe that had GERMAN RAILROAD POLICE or REICHSBAHN POLICE stamped on them in English? I think they were selling for about US$20 with a holster at the time? The Shadow

01-20-2002, 02:50 AM	#15
tom User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 269 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Reichsbahn Shadow, You are thinking of the ones marked "Bahn Polezi Western Zone"...I saw one FS last month at $250 or so in 95% condition. Cute little gun. Hope this helps, Tom

01-20-2002, 03:38 AM	#16
the Shadow Knows Guest Posts: n/a	Reichsbahn You're right! Many thanks!

01-20-2002, 02:55 PM	#17
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Reichsbahn More than you probably ever wanted to know about the subject -- http://www.feldgrau.com/dreichsbahn.html - http://home.earthlink.net/~davidbear (scroll down near the page bottom for links)

01-20-2002, 04:58 PM	#18
mlm Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Reichsbahn In Virginia in 1996 there was a 7.65 commercial luger at a gun show that had R.B.D.Mg.xx on the grip strap in same style and location as on unit marked lugers of other types. The seller was Robert Lamb (Ã??ntique Arms Consultant) and he was selling it as a machine gun unit's luger. He is a nice guy, a vet, and a long time collector that was touting how doing his research (he has Costanzo, eg) enabled him to make such identifications. Although I don't know that I would employ him as an arms consultant, I often wonder if that was truly an Reichsbahn Directorate luger from the Magdeburg rail offices. Magdeburg, according to a German acquaintance, is an important rail hub.

01-20-2002, 10:42 PM	#19
TJ User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: SC Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Railroad Luger Thanks all for the comments. I am a RR employee(Ich bin ein lokomotivfuhrer) so there is a cross over interest here. I have seen many US railroad police guns that were marked with the particular railroad they were used on, so the thought came to mind about the possibility of DR marked weapons. Thanks again.