Now What

Ron Wood · 04-10-2007, 08:52 PM

Where do we go from here? Simpson's has a 1918 Artillery (just the gun) for $20,000. Has a "certificate" indicating it belonged to a "Band of Brothers" Major. Seems a little steep, but what do I know?

I see they also have 1937 S/42 for $20K from the same Major. Guess the guns may be on consignment from the estate?

Edward Tinker · 04-10-2007, 09:05 PM

boy, that is a bit of change...

the gunman · 04-10-2007, 09:46 PM

No way in my mind the majors name on a slip of paper values those guns at 20K each.

Ron Smith · 04-10-2007, 10:10 PM

I'm with Richie on this one. Must be high quality bonded paper.

BTW, I recall a discussion about Major Winters having a Walther PP or PPK. I believe he stated that it was the only pistol he brought home with him.

Am I mistaken??

drbuster · 04-10-2007, 10:28 PM

Not only all of that BUT the turkeys that printed out the "letter of authentication" couldn't even spell "parachute" correctly! A dishonor to one of the greatest fighting men from one of the greatest Divisions (101st) of all time! And to charge $20K!!! I wonder how much will end up with Major Winters?

John F. · 04-10-2007, 10:44 PM

I find it hard to believe that Maj. Winters is actively involved in this...
I am reminded of Bat Masterson, who in his later days as a sports writer,
kept a beat-up Colt Single Action on his desk. Visitors would inevitably ask "is that THE Colt?" Yup. "Gee, I'd sure like to buy it..." "Oh, no, I couldn't possibly sell the gun I tamed the West with... etc." Eventually he'd be talked out of it at a high price, and then he'd head down to the pawn shops and pick up another one for $5 for the next sucker.

Even if it did "belong" to a "Band of Brothers Major," he can buy them at any time -- does owning them for a couple of minutes make them priceless??
Blech.

John

Navy · 04-11-2007, 08:07 AM

Guys,

Winters is old and sick, at last report. He served well as did millions, my late father among them. If he or his heirs have an opportunity to make some money off of his war trophies, where is the harm?

I feel certain that these guns will sell quickly to someone with a sense of history and the means to afford them. I'd love to have one of them to display alongside the von Ribbentrop piece.

Tom A.

ViggoG · 04-11-2007, 11:23 AM

Ron and others ,
"quote"
"I'm with Richie on this one. Must be high quality bonded paper."

I'll bet my boots that the seller is not as well bonded as the paper that was used to print it on".

ViggoG

Chuckc · 04-11-2007, 03:18 PM

While we do live in a free market society, I am wondering if the market place is driving up the prices, or are the dealers inflating the prices to see if the market place will tolerate the inflation.

Like most on this forum, I watch Simpsons' site, what is available and what they are asking. Seems the prices have taken a HUGE leap in the last few months. But bids on the auctions don't seem to following pace. Just me?

Pete Ebbink · 04-11-2007, 03:48 PM

Chuck,

I sold a $ 50 shoulder holster to a fellow and then saw it for sale at a gun show table (same fellow) with a price tag $ 495.

Even if some buyer could "dicker" down that holster on the table and buy it for $ 200, the seller makes a killing and the new buyer thinks he pulled one over on the seller.

I suspect that happens with some of the dealers we watch for pricing clues.

BTW...I doubled my money on that holster...

Ron Smith · 04-11-2007, 09:48 PM

Hi Viggo,

No doubts there.

I still remember hearing that Dick Winters showed a PP or PPK on something, and stated that it was the only pistol he brought back.

Ron

GerColctor · 04-12-2007, 10:38 PM

Buy the gun, not the story.

How many times does that have to be said. Everybody seems to be looking for that special gun owned by someone "important" in history. If you cannot document the weapon to the "important" person, then it is just someone's opinion.

As mentioned above, even if these Lugers came from the Major, when and where did he get them? Did he pick them up on the battlefield, find them in a pile of captured or turned in weapons, win them in a card game or aquire them sometime after he returned home.

In the "Band of Brothers" series there was a paratrooper who was somewhat obsessed in picking up a Luger and eventually got one, but it soon accidently discharged and killed him. Winters was shown in later scenes carrying this Luger. Is that gun one of these two? Can that be verified?

My father-in-law served in the Army in the Pacific Theater as a sergeant and came home with an officer's sword and a few other small trophies, but no guns. If I now went out and purchased a Japanese rifle [with Mum intact] and a pistol, we could claim he brought these home as battlefield pickups and everyone would pay a higher price, because these guns came directly from the vet and he told them a great "story" of how he killed their former owners in a hard fought battle.

Joe

tharpo · 04-13-2007, 12:54 AM

For all those not interested in Maj. Winters two lugers it's still not too late to buy Steve McQueen's from the "Great Escape".
http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/210...spagenameZWDVW

John Sabato · 04-13-2007, 08:57 AM

Pete! I had no idea that a holster once owned by you would appreciate 2000%... I have a few old ones that I will give you if you will give them back in a day or so... I could sure use the money.

Big Norm · 04-15-2007, 12:05 AM

The TV series was great, if not the best WW2 movie. But I always wondered if the title was manufactured by hollywood or if that was an actual nickname that those actual brave guys gave to themselves?
Big Norm

Lyn Islaub · 04-15-2007, 06:47 PM

Dick Winter's book, "Beyond Band of Brothers" Describes on page 233-234 how he becama aquainted with a Panzer Major right after the war and how the Major gave Winters his personal sidearm that looked as if it had never been fired. Winters does not identify the type of pistol it was, but states that it was one of the few souveneirs he kept form the war. It's not lilkely that any Panzer crewman used an 8" barreled 9mm pistol as his personal sidearm and most photos show Panzer crewmen with .32 cal pistols because of the space restrictions inside armored vehicles.
Lyn

waltherguy · 04-15-2007, 10:40 PM

Good Point Lyn, If anything, I know quite a few of the first P-38's issued went to Panzer crews.. even though some P-08's were issued, most likely any 9mm pistol issued to a panzer crew would have been a P-38 from what I have read. Just my 2 cents..

HardBaller · 04-25-2007, 08:14 PM

Was intrigued by this thread and made a call to Simpsons. Seems that these two Lugers do come with official capture papers but that begs the question, how difficult would it be to counterfeit the capture papers? Have been seeing several Lugers and other Axis pistols of late purporting to have the "official capture papers". I too have items/weapons that my late Grandfather (34th ID, American Indian Thunderbirds) brought from Italy and France. But we don't have any "capture papers". Grandad just stuffed the damn things in his duffel and walked off the ship. Whether he was "legal" or not is moot, went on to serve in Japan during occupation there and then Korea.

IMHO since the requirement of import markings, there seems to be those who want to, and who are getting, a premium for ANY item not import marked. That leads down the road to fake documentation as how can you verify a 1945-46 Occupation Forces document? Simpsons staff didn't have the answer on that one either but they do guarantee authenticity as their policy. And yes, it seems that pricing HAS jumped appreciably in the last 3 months IMO. It may be that the oft mentioned $500.00 "shooter" Luger might be a thing of the past too.

As above...buy the gun, not the story. But you have to admit it is a pretty cool story.

Just my solicited .02.

HardBaller · 04-25-2007, 08:14 PM

Was intrigued by this thread and made a call to Simpsons. Seems that these two Lugers do come with official capture papers but that begs the question, how difficult would it be to counterfeit the capture papers? Have been seeing several Lugers and other Axis pistols of late purporting to have the "official capture papers". I too have items/weapons that my late Grandfather (34th ID, American Indian Thunderbirds) brought from Italy and France. But we don't have any "capture papers". Grandad just stuffed the damn things in his duffel and walked off the ship. Whether he was "legal" or not is moot, went on to serve in Japan during occupation there and then Korea.

IMHO since the requirement of import markings, there seems to be those who want to, and who are getting, a premium for ANY item not import marked. That leads down the road to fake documentation as how can you verify a 1945-46 Occupation Forces document? Simpsons staff didn't have the answer on that one either but they do guarantee authenticity as their policy. And yes, it seems that pricing HAS jumped appreciably in the last 3 months IMO. It may be that the oft mentioned $500.00 "shooter" Luger might be a thing of the past too.

As above...buy the gun, not the story. But you have to admit it is a pretty cool story.

Just my solicited .02.

Pete Ebbink · 08-11-2007, 12:08 PM

Interesting that Mr. Winter's would want his personal signature posted up on the Internet...

04-10-2007, 08:52 PM	#1
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,090 Times in 1,675 Posts	Now What Where do we go from here? Simpson's has a 1918 Artillery (just the gun) for $20,000. Has a "certificate" indicating it belonged to a "Band of Brothers" Major. Seems a little steep, but what do I know? I see they also have 1937 S/42 for $20K from the same Major. Guess the guns may be on consignment from the estate? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-10-2007, 10:10 PM	#4
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	I'm with Richie on this one. Must be high quality bonded paper. BTW, I recall a discussion about Major Winters having a Walther PP or PPK. I believe he stated that it was the only pistol he brought home with him. Am I mistaken?? __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

04-10-2007, 10:44 PM	#6
John F. User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I find it hard to believe that Maj. Winters is actively involved in this... I am reminded of Bat Masterson, who in his later days as a sports writer, kept a beat-up Colt Single Action on his desk. Visitors would inevitably ask "is that THE Colt?" Yup. "Gee, I'd sure like to buy it..." "Oh, no, I couldn't possibly sell the gun I tamed the West with... etc." Eventually he'd be talked out of it at a high price, and then he'd head down to the pawn shops and pick up another one for $5 for the next sucker. Even if it did "belong" to a "Band of Brothers Major," he can buy them at any time -- does owning them for a couple of minutes make them priceless?? Blech. John __________________ John

04-11-2007, 03:18 PM	#9
Chuckc User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Cave Creek, AZ Posts: 68 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	While we do live in a free market society, I am wondering if the market place is driving up the prices, or are the dealers inflating the prices to see if the market place will tolerate the inflation. Like most on this forum, I watch Simpsons' site, what is available and what they are asking. Seems the prices have taken a HUGE leap in the last few months. But bids on the auctions don't seem to following pace. Just me? __________________ Art in metal and wood

04-11-2007, 09:48 PM	#11
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hi Viggo, No doubts there. I still remember hearing that Dick Winters showed a PP or PPK on something, and stated that it was the only pistol he brought back. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

04-10-2007, 09:05 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,987 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	boy, that is a bit of change...

04-10-2007, 09:46 PM	#3
the gunman User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Leland NC 28451 Posts: 1,017 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	No way in my mind the majors name on a slip of paper values those guns at 20K each.

04-10-2007, 10:28 PM	#5
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Not only all of that BUT the turkeys that printed out the "letter of authentication" couldn't even spell "parachute" correctly! A dishonor to one of the greatest fighting men from one of the greatest Divisions (101st) of all time! And to charge $20K!!! I wonder how much will end up with Major Winters?

04-11-2007, 08:07 AM	#7
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Guys, Winters is old and sick, at last report. He served well as did millions, my late father among them. If he or his heirs have an opportunity to make some money off of his war trophies, where is the harm? I feel certain that these guns will sell quickly to someone with a sense of history and the means to afford them. I'd love to have one of them to display alongside the von Ribbentrop piece. Tom A.

04-11-2007, 11:23 AM	#8
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Ron and others , "quote" "I'm with Richie on this one. Must be high quality bonded paper." I'll bet my boots that the seller is not as well bonded as the paper that was used to print it on". ViggoG

04-11-2007, 03:48 PM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Chuck, I sold a $ 50 shoulder holster to a fellow and then saw it for sale at a gun show table (same fellow) with a price tag $ 495. Even if some buyer could "dicker" down that holster on the table and buy it for $ 200, the seller makes a killing and the new buyer thinks he pulled one over on the seller. I suspect that happens with some of the dealers we watch for pricing clues. BTW...I doubled my money on that holster...

04-12-2007, 10:38 PM	#12
GerColctor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: CT & FL Posts: 308 Thanks: 2 Thanked 40 Times in 27 Posts	Buy the gun, not the story. How many times does that have to be said. Everybody seems to be looking for that special gun owned by someone "important" in history. If you cannot document the weapon to the "important" person, then it is just someone's opinion. As mentioned above, even if these Lugers came from the Major, when and where did he get them? Did he pick them up on the battlefield, find them in a pile of captured or turned in weapons, win them in a card game or aquire them sometime after he returned home. In the "Band of Brothers" series there was a paratrooper who was somewhat obsessed in picking up a Luger and eventually got one, but it soon accidently discharged and killed him. Winters was shown in later scenes carrying this Luger. Is that gun one of these two? Can that be verified? My father-in-law served in the Army in the Pacific Theater as a sergeant and came home with an officer's sword and a few other small trophies, but no guns. If I now went out and purchased a Japanese rifle [with Mum intact] and a pistol, we could claim he brought these home as battlefield pickups and everyone would pay a higher price, because these guns came directly from the vet and he told them a great "story" of how he killed their former owners in a hard fought battle. Joe __________________ It is better to have lived a day as a tiger, then a thousand years as a lamb.

04-13-2007, 12:54 AM	#13
tharpo Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: West Coast, USA Posts: 536 Thanks: 116 Thanked 375 Times in 153 Posts	For all those not interested in Maj. Winters two lugers it's still not too late to buy Steve McQueen's from the "Great Escape". http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/210...spagenameZWDVW

04-13-2007, 08:57 AM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Pete! I had no idea that a holster once owned by you would appreciate 2000%... I have a few old ones that I will give you if you will give them back in a day or so... I could sure use the money. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-15-2007, 12:05 AM	#15
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	The TV series was great, if not the best WW2 movie. But I always wondered if the title was manufactured by hollywood or if that was an actual nickname that those actual brave guys gave to themselves? Big Norm

04-15-2007, 06:47 PM	#16
Lyn Islaub Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 435 Thanks: 3 Thanked 152 Times in 72 Posts	Dick Winter's book, "Beyond Band of Brothers" Describes on page 233-234 how he becama aquainted with a Panzer Major right after the war and how the Major gave Winters his personal sidearm that looked as if it had never been fired. Winters does not identify the type of pistol it was, but states that it was one of the few souveneirs he kept form the war. It's not lilkely that any Panzer crewman used an 8" barreled 9mm pistol as his personal sidearm and most photos show Panzer crewmen with .32 cal pistols because of the space restrictions inside armored vehicles. Lyn

04-15-2007, 10:40 PM	#17
waltherguy User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: FL Posts: 201 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Good Point Lyn, If anything, I know quite a few of the first P-38's issued went to Panzer crews.. even though some P-08's were issued, most likely any 9mm pistol issued to a panzer crew would have been a P-38 from what I have read. Just my 2 cents.. __________________ "In a man to man fight the winner is the one who puts an extra round in his magazine" -Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

04-25-2007, 08:14 PM	#18
HardBaller User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Republic of Texas Posts: 35 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Was intrigued by this thread and made a call to Simpsons. Seems that these two Lugers do come with official capture papers but that begs the question, how difficult would it be to counterfeit the capture papers? Have been seeing several Lugers and other Axis pistols of late purporting to have the "official capture papers". I too have items/weapons that my late Grandfather (34th ID, American Indian Thunderbirds) brought from Italy and France. But we don't have any "capture papers". Grandad just stuffed the damn things in his duffel and walked off the ship. Whether he was "legal" or not is moot, went on to serve in Japan during occupation there and then Korea. IMHO since the requirement of import markings, there seems to be those who want to, and who are getting, a premium for ANY item not import marked. That leads down the road to fake documentation as how can you verify a 1945-46 Occupation Forces document? Simpsons staff didn't have the answer on that one either but they do guarantee authenticity as their policy. And yes, it seems that pricing HAS jumped appreciably in the last 3 months IMO. It may be that the oft mentioned $500.00 "shooter" Luger might be a thing of the past too. As above...buy the gun, not the story. But you have to admit it is a pretty cool story. Just my solicited .02. __________________ Better to Die On Your Feet Than Live On Your Knees

08-11-2007, 12:08 PM	#20
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Interesting that Mr. Winter's would want his personal signature posted up on the Internet...