alphabet DWM - Finnish

antonio_liviero · 03-22-2010, 03:46 PM

Hi there, I own a commercial alphabet DWM, serial number 3139 suffix q, it is a Finnish Luger (marked SA) and has the proof stamp C/N.
The caliber is 7,65 Parabellum.
If it is possible, I would like to know the year of manufacturing.
And also is it a common or a rare gun?
It shoots well and the blue is about 97%, the straw looks a little wear. It has a magazine with wooden bottom, with no serial number. All parts are matching and everything looks original, probably except one grip.
Approximatively, which value can it have?
Thanks in advance

DavidJayUden · 03-22-2010, 06:03 PM

Typically these models are not worth all that much but I'll wait for others more knowledgable than myself to evaluate the S/A variation.
It does look very nice however.
dju

FNorm · 03-22-2010, 06:29 PM

According to my books, the contract was let in 1923. Delivery of 6000 lugers to the Finns. The q block of alphabets was mostly 1927 and some into 1928. With your serial no, I'd guess Late summer 1927.

FN

LUIS22 · 03-22-2010, 07:29 PM

It looks really impressive, beautiful bluing!!

antonio_liviero · 03-22-2010, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FNorm

According to my books, the contract was let in 1923. Delivery of 6000 lugers to the Finns. The q block of alphabets was mostly 1927 and some into 1928. With your serial no, I'd guess Late summer 1927.

FN

Thanks to everyone for informations and appreciation.
I'm new to this forum but I think it's really interesting.

Ron Smith · 03-22-2010, 08:31 PM

Antonio,

That is one of the best looking Finnish Lugers I have seen. The fact that it remains in 7.65MM Parabellum is good. Most were rebarreled to 9MM by the Finns. I would estimate the U.S. value at $1200-$1400 to the right collector, maybe more.

Very nice example...

Ron

Dwight Gruber · 03-23-2010, 01:32 AM

Since it has been brought up, I regret to tell you that this gun has been refinished.

--Dwight

alanint · 03-23-2010, 05:48 AM

An old refinish, but yes, the buffing on the line above the "SA" is obvious

alvin · 03-23-2010, 06:05 AM

Randy (collectorfirearms.org) has one Finnish Alphabet s/n 1508k for sale which looks original to me. The picture is not clear enough, but the color tone of 1508k is healthy. Finnish likes refurbishing, finding one in original shape is not an easy task.

antonio_liviero · 03-23-2010, 06:12 AM

OK I'm new in this world, now I know my gun has been reblued.
What I'd like to ask is if there is any particullar to check to be sure this rebluing was carried out.
Tha C/N proof marks are not faded, and also the gun shoews signs of wearing from holsters.
I'll appreciate any help

DavidJayUden · 03-23-2010, 07:07 AM

I know of no test for re-blue excepting the sharp eye of experienced collectors. Which is why pictures are so valuable here.
dju

alanint · 03-23-2010, 08:48 AM

Antonio,
Guns were never marked in any way to indicate a re bluing. The best evidence on your gun, for example, is to look at the "scalloped out" area of your upper receiver just to the left and above the C/N. This is where the upper receiver is contoured down near where it meets the barrel. This area should be a very sharp, crisp machining cut with wear only on the sharp edges on a 90% plus gun. Yours shows evidence of having been buffed down and the edges rounded in this area prior to re bluing..

Ron Smith · 03-23-2010, 09:29 AM

I don't believe it's refinished in the conventional sense. I think it's a commercial assembled from reworked Imperial parts. The military serial number was shaved from the front of the frame, and the barrel extension which resulted in the "scallop". And was machined away prior to it's transformation to an alphabet commercial.

If the received had been buffed or filed and reblued to this extent, it would have removed the C/N as well as the SA stamp completely. I believe both of these marks were applied after it's being reworked to a commercial configuration.

DWM was struggling to stay alive in the early post war years, and were turning commercials out as fast as they could from any parts available.

alvin · 03-23-2010, 05:17 PM

From posted pictures.... Besides alanint mentioned, there is another place. SA was applied by Finnish. It's supposed to sit above the blue, not under the blue. Also, it's a stamp, ridge around the stamp should be unavoidable.

03-22-2010, 03:46 PM	#1
antonio_liviero User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Italy Posts: 43 Thanks: 8 Thanked 12 Times in 8 Posts	alphabet DWM - Finnish Hi there, I own a commercial alphabet DWM, serial number 3139 suffix q, it is a Finnish Luger (marked SA) and has the proof stamp C/N. The caliber is 7,65 Parabellum. If it is possible, I would like to know the year of manufacturing. And also is it a common or a rare gun? It shoots well and the blue is about 97%, the straw looks a little wear. It has a magazine with wooden bottom, with no serial number. All parts are matching and everything looks original, probably except one grip. Approximatively, which value can it have? Thanks in advance Attached Thumbnails

03-22-2010, 08:31 PM	#6
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Antonio, That is one of the best looking Finnish Lugers I have seen. The fact that it remains in 7.65MM Parabellum is good. Most were rebarreled to 9MM by the Finns. I would estimate the U.S. value at $1200-$1400 to the right collector, maybe more. Very nice example... Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

03-23-2010, 09:29 AM	#13
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	I don't believe it's refinished in the conventional sense. I think it's a commercial assembled from reworked Imperial parts. The military serial number was shaved from the front of the frame, and the barrel extension which resulted in the "scallop". And was machined away prior to it's transformation to an alphabet commercial. If the received had been buffed or filed and reblued to this extent, it would have removed the C/N as well as the SA stamp completely. I believe both of these marks were applied after it's being reworked to a commercial configuration. DWM was struggling to stay alive in the early post war years, and were turning commercials out as fast as they could from any parts available. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

03-22-2010, 06:03 PM	#2
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Typically these models are not worth all that much but I'll wait for others more knowledgable than myself to evaluate the S/A variation. It does look very nice however. dju

03-22-2010, 06:29 PM	#3
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	According to my books, the contract was let in 1923. Delivery of 6000 lugers to the Finns. The q block of alphabets was mostly 1927 and some into 1928. With your serial no, I'd guess Late summer 1927. FN

03-22-2010, 07:29 PM	#4
LUIS22 User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 42 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	It looks really impressive, beautiful bluing!!

03-23-2010, 01:32 AM	#7
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Since it has been brought up, I regret to tell you that this gun has been refinished. --Dwight

03-23-2010, 05:48 AM	#8
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	An old refinish, but yes, the buffing on the line above the "SA" is obvious

03-23-2010, 06:05 AM	#9
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Randy (collectorfirearms.org) has one Finnish Alphabet s/n 1508k for sale which looks original to me. The picture is not clear enough, but the color tone of 1508k is healthy. Finnish likes refurbishing, finding one in original shape is not an easy task.

03-23-2010, 06:12 AM	#10
antonio_liviero User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Italy Posts: 43 Thanks: 8 Thanked 12 Times in 8 Posts	OK I'm new in this world, now I know my gun has been reblued. What I'd like to ask is if there is any particullar to check to be sure this rebluing was carried out. Tha C/N proof marks are not faded, and also the gun shoews signs of wearing from holsters. I'll appreciate any help

03-23-2010, 07:07 AM	#11
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I know of no test for re-blue excepting the sharp eye of experienced collectors. Which is why pictures are so valuable here. dju

03-23-2010, 08:48 AM	#12
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Antonio, Guns were never marked in any way to indicate a re bluing. The best evidence on your gun, for example, is to look at the "scalloped out" area of your upper receiver just to the left and above the C/N. This is where the upper receiver is contoured down near where it meets the barrel. This area should be a very sharp, crisp machining cut with wear only on the sharp edges on a 90% plus gun. Yours shows evidence of having been buffed down and the edges rounded in this area prior to re bluing..

03-23-2010, 05:17 PM	#14
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	From posted pictures.... Besides alanint mentioned, there is another place. SA was applied by Finnish. It's supposed to sit above the blue, not under the blue. Also, it's a stamp, ridge around the stamp should be unavoidable.