1914 Erfurt Artillery

Big Norm · 03-05-2007, 02:01 AM

I've been looking at a 1914 Erfurt artillery Luger that is currently on GunBroker auction.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=66748163

The seller lists this gun as "Collector Quality" and all "original". This is not true. The gun has been clearly rebarreled, numbered to the gun and blued. A look at the serial number on the frame and underneath the barrel shows 3246c as the serial number, but the serial number on the barrel does not contain the small cap "c". The manufacturers always include the small cap on the barrel, if there is one. The coloration of the bluing on the barrel also tells me that it has been newly blued. This gun is in no way "original" and "Collector Quality".

A pin in the rear sight also shows that it has been recently re-miter blued. The middle toggle MIGHT have been buffed.

Yesterday, I have emailed this seller and politely requested a reply to my concerns and, as of this moment, I have not received an answer. Remembering a recent post by Pete Ebbink and a Mr. Michael Zeleny on this forum (1908/1914 Navy) where they complained about a different gun sale, they got GunBroker to cancel a gun sale, I thought that that was a great act by these two gentlemen. So I have complained to GunBroker about the sale of this Erfurt artillery.

An original 1914 Erfurt artillery Luger with unit marks would usually command a high price, its quite rare. The sellers description is deceptive and misleading. I will try to keep everyone appraised of actions taken by GunBroker, if there is any. I think that this is a good way to stop counterfeiters from manufacturing expensive, collectible guns under fraudulant means. Thank you Pete and Michael.
Big Norm

George Anderson · 03-05-2007, 07:54 AM

Norm, I have to differ with you on this gun, it is 100% correct and original and I would have bought it when I inspected it in Louisville but the seller and I were too far apart on price. Unlike DWM, Erfurt did not include the serial number suffix on the barrel.

I certainly hope that Gunbroker does not take any action in this case.

Pete Ebbink · 03-05-2007, 11:30 AM

Norm,

On that previous G-B auction offering...I only complimented Michael on his actions reporting a scam seller offering to sell a Swiss luger from someones else's web site (CRM). I think that was a clear case of fraud.

BTW...I know the seller of this 1914 Erfurt. He is one of the most honest folks you could ever meet.

Big Norm · 03-05-2007, 11:18 PM

Pete,
so you don't want to address the issue of misrepresentation on a "Collector Quality" and "original" Luger that just just happens to be a rebarreled shooter if that seller happens to be a personal friend of yours who also happens to not reply to polite emails regarding this gun. Perhaps I am reading you wrong.

BTW...Please respond on this forum and not in personal emails to me.
Norm

Big Norm · 03-06-2007, 01:42 AM

George,
you may have a valid point regarding the small cap under the barrel. I have examined all my Erfurt artilleries, but none of them have a small cap to begin with. So there was no help there. I then went quickly through all my books and it doesn't appear that any pictures of Lugers show the serial number under the barrel. There are plenty of pictures of the serial numbers on the frame though. Some quick reading of the literature does not seem to address the issue at all.

Then I took a quick sip of my coffee and started glancing at other areas in my books and I came across something that may very well tip the scale towards what you said. In Jan Stills "Imperial Lugers", pages 29 and 30, these spec drawings show a serial number under the barrel and on the frame. In these drawings, there is a small cap on the frame but a small cap is not shown under the barrel. Both drawings, otherwise, show the same serial numbers, so something might be being shown, but not being said. At least in this book but maybe in the actual German military specs.

The small write up at the bottom of these two pages does suggest that the government royal arsenal in Erfurt did adhere to PROOF MARK specs whereas the private at DWM did not. This COULD possibly explain why the DWM barrels contained the small cap under the barrel while the Erfurt arsenal did not. I say COULD because the write up in Stills book was really addressing proof marks and not serial numbers. But you are looking good.

I based my assumption that this barrel was replaced on the missing small cap under the barrel (a military Luger occurance only attibuted to Erfurt) and on my feeling that this barrel was subsequently reblued. I also thought that a pin under the rear sight was recently re miter blued. My assuptions were based on the pictures supplied to GunBroker by the seller. Since you have personally seen this Luger, I agree that your physical inspection would be better than photographs any day. But I have to ask anyway on a personal basis, do you think that this barrel was not reblued and that that my above mentioned pin under the rear sight was not re-mitered? If so then I will have to email gunBroker a retraction of my complaint to them and to apologize to the members of this forum.
Big Norm

George Anderson · 03-06-2007, 07:22 AM

Norm, the question of the barrel having been reblued is answered by looking at the close-up photos of the muzzle and the barrel serial number. The former is well worn and the latter displays quite a halo.

As to Erfurt's serial numbering, all my Erfurts' numbers include a suffix and none show the suffix on the barrel. Erfurt also seems to be inconsistent in how the stocks are numbered, some include the suffix and others do not.

Pete Ebbink · 03-06-2007, 11:17 AM

Norm,

The seller knows about original finish, etc. and boosted pieces.

I think his character would only allow him to write up a truthful sales ad.

spartacus38 · 03-06-2007, 11:34 AM

I inspected the Erfurt at Louisville and in my opinion it is correct.

Bob Young

Navy · 03-06-2007, 11:50 AM

Boris,the seller, is a gentleman of the highest repute. He also knows his guns. it is unthinkable that this piece is anything except as represented.

Tom A

beachbaker · 03-06-2007, 12:24 PM

Since many of the members looked at this piece in Louisville I was curious as to asking price at the show? Thanks, Curt

spartacus38 · 03-06-2007, 01:10 PM

The gun was priced at $3300.

Pete Ebbink · 03-06-2007, 04:02 PM

I lightened-up the unit markings on the grip strap...for those of you whom like to ID the units :

From a previous posting on Jan's Gun Boards :

" The unit mark (thanks to Jan Still): 1914 Lange ERF. 3246a: R.A.R.51.8.30. - (Reserve-Feld-Artillerie-Regiment 51, 8 Batterie, Waffe Nr. 30). This Regiment was part of the 51 Reserve Division, which battled at Flanders, the Somme, and Champagne during World War I. "

Pete Ebbink · 03-06-2007, 10:39 PM

Here is the posting from Jan's Gun Boards when this 1914 Erfurt was first acquired. More photos in this discussion :

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp...chTerms=erfurt

Big Norm · 03-07-2007, 05:40 AM

George,
knowning your skill with Lugers, then I believe the gun is OK. I have abandoned (terminated) my complaint with GunBroker. The gun currently is at $2701 with 4 days left. The reserve has been met but it most likely will go for more than the $3300 that Sparticus posted. These auctions are going crazy.

All my Erfurt artilleries do not have a small cap, but I have one 1913 Erfurt P-08 that does have a small cap in the serial number on the frame but not on the barrel. That, along with Stills drawing on pages 29-30 in his Imperial Luger book, has convinced me that you are correct. So I have to eat some humble pie here. But some good has come out of this post in that I learned something unique about Erfurt serial numbers. Maybe others here have too and that would be very good.

Another bit of good is that this gave me a chance to look again at the above mentioned Erfurt P-08 that I have and it looks like its a lot better gun that I had originally thought it was.

I already have an Erfurt artillery rig (matching stock and mag) thats pretty good and one or two others so I will probably pass or do nothing on this one but I will watch the auction anyway. I like watching guys go crazy at auctions. its almost like watching them play poker with their bids. I might even throw in a bid just to add to the excitement. But I am sure that people will go nutso in the last few hours.

I don't know Boris even though he is from Ohio and I am a member of the Ohio Gun Collectors Assn. The only Boris that I know is Boris Karloff of movie fame. Maybe next time I am at Doug Smiths table I will ask him about this guy and maybe meet him.
Big Norm

Pete Ebbink · 03-07-2007, 11:10 AM

Doug even has one for sale at $ 2850...first one on their arty page :

http://www.fgsinc.8m.com/photo_2.html

lew1 · 03-07-2007, 11:19 AM

Don't overlook the second Erfurt artillery - the one just below the one you referenced.

Again $2850 and it comes with a repo stock, holster and doble magazine pouch.

03-05-2007, 02:01 AM	#1
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	1914 Erfurt Artillery I've been looking at a 1914 Erfurt artillery Luger that is currently on GunBroker auction. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=66748163 The seller lists this gun as "Collector Quality" and all "original". This is not true. The gun has been clearly rebarreled, numbered to the gun and blued. A look at the serial number on the frame and underneath the barrel shows 3246c as the serial number, but the serial number on the barrel does not contain the small cap "c". The manufacturers always include the small cap on the barrel, if there is one. The coloration of the bluing on the barrel also tells me that it has been newly blued. This gun is in no way "original" and "Collector Quality". A pin in the rear sight also shows that it has been recently re-miter blued. The middle toggle MIGHT have been buffed. Yesterday, I have emailed this seller and politely requested a reply to my concerns and, as of this moment, I have not received an answer. Remembering a recent post by Pete Ebbink and a Mr. Michael Zeleny on this forum (1908/1914 Navy) where they complained about a different gun sale, they got GunBroker to cancel a gun sale, I thought that that was a great act by these two gentlemen. So I have complained to GunBroker about the sale of this Erfurt artillery. An original 1914 Erfurt artillery Luger with unit marks would usually command a high price, its quite rare. The sellers description is deceptive and misleading. I will try to keep everyone appraised of actions taken by GunBroker, if there is any. I think that this is a good way to stop counterfeiters from manufacturing expensive, collectible guns under fraudulant means. Thank you Pete and Michael. Big Norm

03-06-2007, 12:24 PM	#10
beachbaker Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: california Posts: 135 Thanks: 27 Thanked 106 Times in 29 Posts	Since many of the members looked at this piece in Louisville I was curious as to asking price at the show? Thanks, Curt __________________ Curt

03-07-2007, 11:19 AM	#16
lew1 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,108 Thanks: 82 Thanked 204 Times in 112 Posts	Don't overlook the second Erfurt artillery - the one just below the one you referenced. Again $2850 and it comes with a repo stock, holster and doble magazine pouch. __________________ charlie

03-05-2007, 07:54 AM	#2
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Norm, I have to differ with you on this gun, it is 100% correct and original and I would have bought it when I inspected it in Louisville but the seller and I were too far apart on price. Unlike DWM, Erfurt did not include the serial number suffix on the barrel. I certainly hope that Gunbroker does not take any action in this case.

03-05-2007, 11:30 AM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Norm, On that previous G-B auction offering...I only complimented Michael on his actions reporting a scam seller offering to sell a Swiss luger from someones else's web site (CRM). I think that was a clear case of fraud. BTW...I know the seller of this 1914 Erfurt. He is one of the most honest folks you could ever meet.

03-05-2007, 11:18 PM	#4
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Pete, so you don't want to address the issue of misrepresentation on a "Collector Quality" and "original" Luger that just just happens to be a rebarreled shooter if that seller happens to be a personal friend of yours who also happens to not reply to polite emails regarding this gun. Perhaps I am reading you wrong. BTW...Please respond on this forum and not in personal emails to me. Norm

03-06-2007, 01:42 AM	#5
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	George, you may have a valid point regarding the small cap under the barrel. I have examined all my Erfurt artilleries, but none of them have a small cap to begin with. So there was no help there. I then went quickly through all my books and it doesn't appear that any pictures of Lugers show the serial number under the barrel. There are plenty of pictures of the serial numbers on the frame though. Some quick reading of the literature does not seem to address the issue at all. Then I took a quick sip of my coffee and started glancing at other areas in my books and I came across something that may very well tip the scale towards what you said. In Jan Stills "Imperial Lugers", pages 29 and 30, these spec drawings show a serial number under the barrel and on the frame. In these drawings, there is a small cap on the frame but a small cap is not shown under the barrel. Both drawings, otherwise, show the same serial numbers, so something might be being shown, but not being said. At least in this book but maybe in the actual German military specs. The small write up at the bottom of these two pages does suggest that the government royal arsenal in Erfurt did adhere to PROOF MARK specs whereas the private at DWM did not. This COULD possibly explain why the DWM barrels contained the small cap under the barrel while the Erfurt arsenal did not. I say COULD because the write up in Stills book was really addressing proof marks and not serial numbers. But you are looking good. I based my assumption that this barrel was replaced on the missing small cap under the barrel (a military Luger occurance only attibuted to Erfurt) and on my feeling that this barrel was subsequently reblued. I also thought that a pin under the rear sight was recently re miter blued. My assuptions were based on the pictures supplied to GunBroker by the seller. Since you have personally seen this Luger, I agree that your physical inspection would be better than photographs any day. But I have to ask anyway on a personal basis, do you think that this barrel was not reblued and that that my above mentioned pin under the rear sight was not re-mitered? If so then I will have to email gunBroker a retraction of my complaint to them and to apologize to the members of this forum. Big Norm

03-06-2007, 07:22 AM	#6
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Norm, the question of the barrel having been reblued is answered by looking at the close-up photos of the muzzle and the barrel serial number. The former is well worn and the latter displays quite a halo. As to Erfurt's serial numbering, all my Erfurts' numbers include a suffix and none show the suffix on the barrel. Erfurt also seems to be inconsistent in how the stocks are numbered, some include the suffix and others do not.

03-06-2007, 11:17 AM	#7
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Norm, The seller knows about original finish, etc. and boosted pieces. I think his character would only allow him to write up a truthful sales ad.

03-06-2007, 11:34 AM	#8
spartacus38 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Lake Tahoe,CA. Posts: 695 Thanks: 0 Thanked 70 Times in 56 Posts	I inspected the Erfurt at Louisville and in my opinion it is correct. Bob Young

03-06-2007, 11:50 AM	#9
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Boris,the seller, is a gentleman of the highest repute. He also knows his guns. it is unthinkable that this piece is anything except as represented. Tom A

03-06-2007, 01:10 PM	#11
spartacus38 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Lake Tahoe,CA. Posts: 695 Thanks: 0 Thanked 70 Times in 56 Posts	The gun was priced at $3300.

03-06-2007, 04:02 PM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	I lightened-up the unit markings on the grip strap...for those of you whom like to ID the units : From a previous posting on Jan's Gun Boards : " The unit mark (thanks to Jan Still): 1914 Lange ERF. 3246a: R.A.R.51.8.30. - (Reserve-Feld-Artillerie-Regiment 51, 8 Batterie, Waffe Nr. 30). This Regiment was part of the 51 Reserve Division, which battled at Flanders, the Somme, and Champagne during World War I. "

03-06-2007, 10:39 PM	#13
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Here is the posting from Jan's Gun Boards when this 1914 Erfurt was first acquired. More photos in this discussion : http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp...chTerms=erfurt

03-07-2007, 05:40 AM	#14
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	George, knowning your skill with Lugers, then I believe the gun is OK. I have abandoned (terminated) my complaint with GunBroker. The gun currently is at $2701 with 4 days left. The reserve has been met but it most likely will go for more than the $3300 that Sparticus posted. These auctions are going crazy. All my Erfurt artilleries do not have a small cap, but I have one 1913 Erfurt P-08 that does have a small cap in the serial number on the frame but not on the barrel. That, along with Stills drawing on pages 29-30 in his Imperial Luger book, has convinced me that you are correct. So I have to eat some humble pie here. But some good has come out of this post in that I learned something unique about Erfurt serial numbers. Maybe others here have too and that would be very good. Another bit of good is that this gave me a chance to look again at the above mentioned Erfurt P-08 that I have and it looks like its a lot better gun that I had originally thought it was. I already have an Erfurt artillery rig (matching stock and mag) thats pretty good and one or two others so I will probably pass or do nothing on this one but I will watch the auction anyway. I like watching guys go crazy at auctions. its almost like watching them play poker with their bids. I might even throw in a bid just to add to the excitement. But I am sure that people will go nutso in the last few hours. I don't know Boris even though he is from Ohio and I am a member of the Ohio Gun Collectors Assn. The only Boris that I know is Boris Karloff of movie fame. Maybe next time I am at Doug Smiths table I will ask him about this guy and maybe meet him. Big Norm

03-07-2007, 11:10 AM	#15
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Doug even has one for sale at $ 2850...first one on their arty page : http://www.fgsinc.8m.com/photo_2.html