LugerForum Discussion Forums my profile | register | faq | search
upload photo | donate | calendar

Go Back   LugerForum Discussion Forums > Luger Discussion Forums > Krieghoff Lugers

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 07-09-2002, 06:51 PM   #1
sschultz
User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: ca
Posts: 22
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Post Datig and Krieghoffs

Just wondering if Datig's beliefs about which Krieghoff lugers were actually "manufactured" by them, are accepted as wrong. If I remember correctly, he stated that manufacturing did not begin until 1939. Therefore, anything dated prior, was not manufactured, but was assembled from parts. And could I please get a confirmation on the date of the Luftwaffe contract? If there is an awesome reference on Krieghoffs, please let me know. Thanks for the time. -stuart
sschultz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2002, 07:42 PM   #2
Brandon
User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Tennessee, USA
Posts: 329
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Arrow

Hi sschultz!

Ralph Shattuck told me about a book called The Kreighoff Parabellum by: Randall Gibson!
Ralph said it was a must! I don't have it yet but plan on buying it in the future!

Hope this has helped!
Brandon
Brandon is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2002, 11:15 PM   #3
John D.
Administrator
& Site Owner
LugerForum
Patron
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: A Little NE of Somewhere...
Posts: 2,650
Thanks: 470
Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts
Post

In 1934 - the Luftwaffe went out to bid for Lugers - and Krieghoff was the favored manufacturer given the arms they supplied to the existing contracts. Given the transition of the machinery/tooling (Erfurt - Simson - Krieghoff) it is reasonable to believe that he new tooling was in place in late 1934 at HK. The first production run was in late 1934 on the HK new machines/tooling. In order of delivery - they were "G" dated (late 1934 or early 1935), Early "S" and early "S" (Turkish - 1935), Mid "S" (1935), etc.

Other HK efforts included, that reworks were DWM 1920/1921 Commercial re-works - stamped on the backframe. These, along with side-frame inscribed Kriegs, are the two HK's that are most encountered fakes (IMNSHO).

Hope this helps!!!
John D. is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2002, 11:18 PM   #4
John D.
Administrator
& Site Owner
LugerForum
Patron
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: A Little NE of Somewhere...
Posts: 2,650
Thanks: 470
Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts
Post

[quote]Originally posted by Brandon:
<strong>.....a book called The Kreighoff Parabellum by: Randall Gibson!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hey Brandon..!!

EXCELLENT book!!!! Excellent suggestion!!! Buy the book - it's wonderful!!! (I'm biased, however [img]smile.gif[/img] )
John D. is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2002, 11:59 PM   #5
Edward Tinker
Super Moderator
Eternal Lifer
LugerForum
Patron
 
Edward Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: North of Spokane, WA
Posts: 15,902
Thanks: 1,981
Thanked 4,487 Times in 2,071 Posts
Talking

If you think the book is good, it must be worth it John! [img]smile.gif[/img]
__________________
Edward Tinker
************
Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers
Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

Edward Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-10-2002, 12:08 AM   #6
John D.
Administrator
& Site Owner
LugerForum
Patron
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: A Little NE of Somewhere...
Posts: 2,650
Thanks: 470
Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts
Post

[quote]Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
<strong>If you think the book is good, it must be worth it John! [img]smile.gif[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote>

Are you suggesting I am cheap??!!! LOL!!!

[img]eek.gif[/img] <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> [img]biggrin.gif[/img] <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

(you "could" be right - BTW) [img]smile.gif[/img]
John D. is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-10-2002, 12:17 AM   #7
Edward Tinker
Super Moderator
Eternal Lifer
LugerForum
Patron
 
Edward Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: North of Spokane, WA
Posts: 15,902
Thanks: 1,981
Thanked 4,487 Times in 2,071 Posts
Talking

Not if you collect Kreigs

[img]biggrin.gif[/img]
__________________
Edward Tinker
************
Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers
Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

Edward Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-10-2002, 12:22 AM   #8
John D.
Administrator
& Site Owner
LugerForum
Patron
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: A Little NE of Somewhere...
Posts: 2,650
Thanks: 470
Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts
Post

[quote]Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
<strong>Not if you collect Kreigs</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yea - BUT... (you knew there was a "BUT" [img]smile.gif[/img] )

While you folks talk about collections having dozens of examples - we Krieg collectors have to get by with a collection comprised of somewhat "fewer" numbers in our collections... 'Course - it does save time when "cleaning" our collection [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]
John D. is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-10-2002, 12:48 AM   #9
sschultz
User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: ca
Posts: 22
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Post

Thanks everyone for the posts. John, while I'm waiting for this reference book, I was hoping you could verify a couple things.
1)Were all S codes made for the Luftwaffe?
2)Were the "parts" guns made only for commercial sales? Or were these also used for the LW?
Again, thank you. -stuart
sschultz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-10-2002, 09:32 AM   #10
Lugerdoc
Patron
LugerForum
Patron
 
Lugerdoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302
Posts: 5,089
Thanks: 6
Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts
Post

John D, I believe that all S code KH PO8s were made in 1936, before the open dating was allowed.
__________________
Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302
Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net
Lugerdoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-10-2002, 10:27 AM   #11
John D.
Administrator
& Site Owner
LugerForum
Patron
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: A Little NE of Somewhere...
Posts: 2,650
Thanks: 470
Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts
Post

[quote]Originally posted by Lugerdoc:
<strong>John D, I believe that all S code KH PO8s were made in 1936, before the open dating was allowed.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hi Tom.!

Yes - as according to Gibson, you are absolutely correct, sorry about that..! However, as you may recall, there was a lengthy discussion on the old Forum between Bill M. and myself regarding exactly this topic - when were the "S" codes manufactured/delivered. Gibson states 1936 for all "S" code. However he also states the following:

'Kreighoff production began in late 1934 or early 1935..'

'G Code estimated production was 50 Lugers'

So - that leaves a *huge* gap in production (50 units in late '34/early '35) to 1936 when the Ealy "S" appeared (est. production - 1800 units)? Anyway, given the similiarities in proofs/markings between the "G" and the Early "S" - I also strongly believe that at least the Early "S" (if not all "S" dates) were manufactured in 1935, but I'm still trying to determine when they were actually "delivered".

Additionally, as pointed out by Bill M. in that previous discussioin - in 1936, Mauser abandoned the "letter dating" and went to "1936" - which raises the question as to why Krieghoff would have implemented an "S" code at all during a year that they, in later production that same year, and Mauser simply put "1936" rather then a Letter code? I think where both Bill M. and I ended up is that a reasonable explanation would be that the "S" codes were produced/marked "S" before Germany dropped the "letter" coding, again - strongly indicating 1935 production.

In either case, you are correct - as either of these dates precedes Datig's estimated production date of 1939..!!!
John D. is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-10-2002, 11:35 AM   #12
John D.
Administrator
& Site Owner
LugerForum
Patron
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: A Little NE of Somewhere...
Posts: 2,650
Thanks: 470
Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts
Post

[quote]Originally posted by sschultz:
<strong>...John, while I'm waiting for this reference book, I was hoping you could verify a couple things.
1)Were all S codes made for the Luftwaffe?
2)Were the "parts" guns made only for commercial sales? Or were these also used for the LW?..</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hi Stuart,

To your question 1 - yes, chamber coded "S" Krieghoffs went to the Luftwaffe as part of their original military contract, as did "G" dates, "36", 1936, 1937, etc...

As to question 2 - I'm not sure what you mean by "parts" guns? If you are talking about the DWM 1920/1921 "reworks", yes, those were for commercial sales. Am I mis-reading your question, as I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "parts guns"??

Let me know, OK??!! [img]smile.gif[/img]
John D. is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-10-2002, 12:28 PM   #13
sschultz
User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: ca
Posts: 22
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Post

Hello John;
Sorry I didn't clarify this. What I meant by the term "parts" was the use of Simson made components. Thanks. -stuart
sschultz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-10-2002, 03:01 PM   #14
John D.
Administrator
& Site Owner
LugerForum
Patron
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: A Little NE of Somewhere...
Posts: 2,650
Thanks: 470
Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts
Post

Hi Stuart..!

Ahhh - OK, thanks for the clarification.. I'm not aware of any Simson parts used in either Military production or during the "Commercial" era from HK. Post war - yes, on GI assembled HK parts guns - there have been quite a few Simson, Mauser, DWM, etc. parts that were used in their assembly.

Some time ago - there were some discussions regarding whether HK used parts from Simson when they acquired the tooling from that company. Given the visible differences between machining techniques between Simson and HK (frame, cannon, etc.), and supported by the fact that HK machining was fairly consistent throughout their dates of manufacture - point to virtually all the HK production was from their own parts, rather then parts acquired from Simson.

There was also some speculation as to whether Mauser or another supplier sent HK frame forgings for use in their production. However, since HKs are found in alloy metals, it would also lead to believe that HK produced their own frame forgings rather then receive them from another supplier.

Anyway - all of these theories are presented in Gibson's book and more info has been presented throughout the years in the NAPCA newsletter. BOTH (a NAPCA membership and Mr. Gibson's book!) are terrific investments - and will keep your mind spinning with what they contain/offer..!

Best to you!!!
John D. is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-10-2002, 06:01 PM   #15
sschultz
User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: ca
Posts: 22
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Post

John;
Once again, thank you very much. You answered my questions, and then some. I will definitely invest in both as you suggest. -stuart
sschultz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 1998 - 2023, Lugerforum.com