1917 Erfurt 7.65 - Need Help

whr_iii · 03-14-2011, 06:31 PM

New user, apologize if I am posting this incorrectly but sure would appreciate any help. Inherited from my late father his prized 1917 Erfurt Luger, SN 8714. He was never able to fully identify having consulted several resources to include books from Datig and Reese. Didn't have the internet so thought I would put it to use to hopefully solve his quest. Particulars are 1917 production year, Erfurt stamp by toggle, smooth vs checkered grips in 7.65mm, Yes, 7.65. Barrel is 4", all SNs are matched except magazines. Holster is not original (for this pistol) as was produced in 1940. Everything says this should not be 7.65 rather 9mm. Can anyone help? Much thanks.

Uploaded some photos, have several others if needed. Also have in very high res (3MB+) if desired.

alanint · 03-14-2011, 06:42 PM

Your photos cannot be enlarged as posted. You need to provide these in another format, which allows for enlargement.

Thanks and welcome to the forum

mrerick · 03-14-2011, 09:36 PM

Bill,

If you can re-scale your pictures to about 800 pixels wide and post them, we should be able to see more detail...

Marc

whr_iii · 03-15-2011, 07:57 AM

Thanks to both for quick reply; will work on uploading new pics tonight when I get back to the house. Any additional pics needed to help with identification? Think I grabbed most areas with markings.

Lugerdoc · 03-15-2011, 09:33 AM

WHR, You are correct that a 1917 dtd MILITARY PO6 should have a 9mm barrel. There are 2 possibilities that came to mind: If the original matching proofed military barrel, it has probably been relined. If not the correctly marked barrel, it has been changed. TH

whr_iii · 03-15-2011, 12:37 PM

Thanks much. Will hopefully upload better photos later today. If I recall, SN on bottom of barrel are matched to remainder of pistol thus increasing the odds of relining. Hadn't considered this option - is there any easy way to determine if this occurred?

wlyon · 03-15-2011, 01:19 PM

A clear phpto of the muzzle would help. It is difficult to hide a liner. Bill

whr_iii · 03-15-2011, 06:02 PM

To all - rescaled pictures to 640x480 and posted to original posting. Hopefully I have done this correctly. Very much appreciate all the recommendations thus far. Will have to take picture of muzzle but have to finish packing. Heading to Brazil tomorrow so may not respond as quickly and won't have access to Luger. Thanks again to all.

Vlim · 03-15-2011, 06:17 PM

The barrel still has the original 9mm land-to-land size in mm (8.84mm), so there is no doubt that it once was a 9mm barrel.

whr_iii · 03-16-2011, 08:16 AM

Unfamiliar with the process of barrel relining. Appreciate if someone could educate me on this process, why it is done (assume to extend life of weapon) and what effect it has on overall valuation of the weapon. Out of curiousity (as I will never part with the Luger as it was my Father's favorite), could any one provide an approximate value on it based on photos provided thus far? Again, thanks for all the feedback.

alanint · 03-16-2011, 09:09 AM

Rebarreling to another caliber to extend a weapon's life does not really make sense. If you are relining, there is no difference in time or effort to simply reline to 9mm again. Chances are this pistol may have ended up in Mexico or a country with similar laws at some point in its life. The 9mm caliber is highly restricted to the military and police in Mexico and many guns, which ended up down there were rebarreled or relined to other calibers to comply with the law.

Mexico, in fact, is probably the .38 Super capital of the world. All the 1911s or Browing HPs you see commercially there are in .38 Super, since .45 is similarly restricted as 9mm.

This gun was also subjected to some abuse, (see the vice prints on the right side of the frame around the reverse face of the mag release). Probably during barrel removal to effect the relining.

03-14-2011, 06:31 PM	#1
whr_iii User Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 5 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1917 Erfurt 7.65 - Need Help New user, apologize if I am posting this incorrectly but sure would appreciate any help. Inherited from my late father his prized 1917 Erfurt Luger, SN 8714. He was never able to fully identify having consulted several resources to include books from Datig and Reese. Didn't have the internet so thought I would put it to use to hopefully solve his quest. Particulars are 1917 production year, Erfurt stamp by toggle, smooth vs checkered grips in 7.65mm, Yes, 7.65. Barrel is 4", all SNs are matched except magazines. Holster is not original (for this pistol) as was produced in 1940. Everything says this should not be 7.65 rather 9mm. Can anyone help? Much thanks. Uploaded some photos, have several others if needed. Also have in very high res (3MB+) if desired. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by whr_iii; 03-15-2011 at 06:00 PM.

03-14-2011, 09:36 PM	#3
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Bill, If you can re-scale your pictures to about 800 pixels wide and post them, we should be able to see more detail... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-15-2011, 09:33 AM	#5
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	WHR, You are correct that a 1917 dtd MILITARY PO6 should have a 9mm barrel. There are 2 possibilities that came to mind: If the original matching proofed military barrel, it has probably been relined. If not the correctly marked barrel, it has been changed. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

03-15-2011, 01:19 PM	#7
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,635 Thanks: 3,174 Thanked 2,555 Times in 954 Posts	A clear phpto of the muzzle would help. It is difficult to hide a liner. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

03-16-2011, 09:09 AM	#11
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Rebarreling to another caliber to extend a weapon's life does not really make sense. If you are relining, there is no difference in time or effort to simply reline to 9mm again. Chances are this pistol may have ended up in Mexico or a country with similar laws at some point in its life. The 9mm caliber is highly restricted to the military and police in Mexico and many guns, which ended up down there were rebarreled or relined to other calibers to comply with the law. Mexico, in fact, is probably the .38 Super capital of the world. All the 1911s or Browing HPs you see commercially there are in .38 Super, since .45 is similarly restricted as 9mm. This gun was also subjected to some abuse, (see the vice prints on the right side of the frame around the reverse face of the mag release). Probably during barrel removal to effect the relining. Last edited by alanint; 03-16-2011 at 10:03 AM.

03-14-2011, 06:42 PM	#2
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Your photos cannot be enlarged as posted. You need to provide these in another format, which allows for enlargement. Thanks and welcome to the forum

03-15-2011, 07:57 AM	#4
whr_iii User Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 5 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks to both for quick reply; will work on uploading new pics tonight when I get back to the house. Any additional pics needed to help with identification? Think I grabbed most areas with markings.

03-15-2011, 12:37 PM	#6
whr_iii User Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 5 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks much. Will hopefully upload better photos later today. If I recall, SN on bottom of barrel are matched to remainder of pistol thus increasing the odds of relining. Hadn't considered this option - is there any easy way to determine if this occurred?

03-15-2011, 06:02 PM	#8
whr_iii User Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 5 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	To all - rescaled pictures to 640x480 and posted to original posting. Hopefully I have done this correctly. Very much appreciate all the recommendations thus far. Will have to take picture of muzzle but have to finish packing. Heading to Brazil tomorrow so may not respond as quickly and won't have access to Luger. Thanks again to all.

03-15-2011, 06:17 PM	#9
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	The barrel still has the original 9mm land-to-land size in mm (8.84mm), so there is no doubt that it once was a 9mm barrel.

03-16-2011, 08:16 AM	#10
whr_iii User Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 5 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Unfamiliar with the process of barrel relining. Appreciate if someone could educate me on this process, why it is done (assume to extend life of weapon) and what effect it has on overall valuation of the weapon. Out of curiousity (as I will never part with the Luger as it was my Father's favorite), could any one provide an approximate value on it based on photos provided thus far? Again, thanks for all the feedback.