1918 DWM marking question

cjeep85 · 11-14-2004, 06:41 PM

I've got a nice 1918 DWM luger that has all matching numbers except for the mag.. It has a spread wing eagle over a circle with a swastika in it on the right side. It also has a crown with RC under it on the barrel. There are other markings but I can't tell you what they are. Can anyone tell me anything about this Luger. I will greatly appreciate any/all info. I get. I can enter a pic. if needed. Thanks alot.
cjeep85

Ron Smith · 11-14-2004, 06:58 PM

Michael,
Post some photos. A 1918 should'nt have a Third Reich waffenamt(eagle over swaztika) on it.The Crown over RC is an inspectors stamp.

Ron

Dwight Gruber · 11-14-2004, 07:14 PM

Actually the c/RC is the Revisions-Commission stamp, certifying a slightly out-of-spec part serviceable. These are prolific on Erfurt-manufactured Lugers, but very uncommon on DWM.

This is a very noteworthy feature, pictures of all gun views and all markings will be of interest.

--Dwight

cjeep85 · 11-14-2004, 07:59 PM

1918 DWM with markings in question. Eagle over circle with swastika and RC under crown. On the barrel is a stick eagle with wings spread. Hope this helps. Thanks.

ADMIN photo changed to show picture, you can also add up to 8 photos per posting.

Dwight Gruber · 11-15-2004, 02:45 AM

cjeep85,

This is a very interesting Luger. I have a couple of thoughts about it, butmmore information is necessary.

Are there any marks on the left side of the receiver, and is there a proof mark on the left breechblock? Any marks under the barrel?

Is the figure under the eagele really a swastika, or is it a cross?

Is there a witness mark?

--Dwight

cjeep85 · 11-15-2004, 09:44 AM

Its definently a swastika under the eagle.

cjeep85 · 11-15-2004, 10:02 AM

Hey, I'm trying. These are the markings on the gun. The left side of the breech block has what looks like an N with something I can't make out over it. I don't know what/where a witness proof is. All info. is appreciated.

Dwight Gruber · 11-15-2004, 10:48 AM

cjeep85,

The effort is appreciated.

The mark on the upper-left quadrant of the barrel, the crown-over-letter with the c/RC above it, is diagnostic, as is the similar figure on the receiver.

The Witness Mark is the line stamped across the barrel/receiver juncture at the bottom of the receiver. It can just be seen in your second photo, but a much closer view might be revealing.

This Luger appears to be assembled from parts which were set aside--never completed--in 1918, and made into a gun some time later. There is more to tell here, but the breechblock marking is actually rather crucial to completing the story. A closeup might allow some of the more experienced collectors here to help determine what the figure actually is.

--Dwight

cjeep85 · 11-15-2004, 11:48 AM

Still trying. This is the left side of the breechblock. Its an N with possibly a crown over it.

This is the witness mark. It may apprear slightly off but its not. The marks line-up perfectly with each other.
I'm trying to get an idea of the value of this Luger. Thanks for all the help.

Dwight Gruber · 11-15-2004, 11:40 PM

cjeep85,

By all appearances this is a parts assembly rework Luger. It is very difficult to make a complete determination, as some of the stamps are not exactly as expected, and the barrel "stick eagle" is not close-up enough to see determining fine detail.

The receiver (and presumably barrel) are originally of Erfurt manufacture. This can be told by your first photograph, which has the flat machined into the front edge necessary for an LP-08 (Artillery) rear sight. In 1916 a mandate was issued for all Luger receivers to be manufactured with this cut; Erfurt followed this mandate, DWM did not.

The receiver has only the leftmost inspector mark, and a revisions-commission stamp above it. This was the first receiver inspector stamp applied to a Luger, certifying that the receiver has been hardened; the date is stamped at the same time. The crowns for the other two inspector's stamps were applied at the same time. Apparently some flaw was found with it, and the part was taken from the production line and submitted to the Revisions-Commission.

The barrel was sent to the Revisions-Commission as well. It appears that the receiver and barrel never made it back into the production line from the Commission, whether by design or by happenstance. It is not clear whether the barrel and receiver were mated at this time.

By the terms of the Treaty of Versailles after WWI, gun manufacturers were forbidden to manufacture new military-style weapons. This did not apply to rework and assembly from existing parts however, and "puzzle Lugers" like this one were put together for sale for cash flow income and surreptitious internal use.

The eagle/swasitka on the right receiver was used from 1937 through 1942. In Costanzo's magnum opus on Luger markings it is shown in combination with quite a few other markings, missing on this gun. It might be possible to focus in on the time frame a bit more if it were possible to see the detail of the barrel mark.

The figure on the breechblock is a crown-over-N, the commercial firing proof. This mark is not normally found in combination with the eagles on the right side of this Luger.

To all appearances this is a very nice older parts assembly-rework, likely original (c/N notwithstanding).

--Dwight

11-14-2004, 06:41 PM	#1
cjeep85 User Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1918 DWM marking question I've got a nice 1918 DWM luger that has all matching numbers except for the mag.. It has a spread wing eagle over a circle with a swastika in it on the right side. It also has a crown with RC under it on the barrel. There are other markings but I can't tell you what they are. Can anyone tell me anything about this Luger. I will greatly appreciate any/all info. I get. I can enter a pic. if needed. Thanks alot. cjeep85

11-14-2004, 06:58 PM	#2
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Michael, Post some photos. A 1918 should'nt have a Third Reich waffenamt(eagle over swaztika) on it.The Crown over RC is an inspectors stamp. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

11-14-2004, 07:14 PM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Actually the c/RC is the Revisions-Commission stamp, certifying a slightly out-of-spec part serviceable. These are prolific on Erfurt-manufactured Lugers, but very uncommon on DWM. This is a very noteworthy feature, pictures of all gun views and all markings will be of interest. --Dwight

11-14-2004, 07:59 PM	#4
cjeep85 User Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1918 DWM with markings in question. Eagle over circle with swastika and RC under crown. On the barrel is a stick eagle with wings spread. Hope this helps. Thanks. ADMIN photo changed to show picture, you can also add up to 8 photos per posting.

11-15-2004, 02:45 AM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	cjeep85, This is a very interesting Luger. I have a couple of thoughts about it, butmmore information is necessary. Are there any marks on the left side of the receiver, and is there a proof mark on the left breechblock? Any marks under the barrel? Is the figure under the eagele really a swastika, or is it a cross? Is there a witness mark? --Dwight

11-15-2004, 09:44 AM	#6
cjeep85 User Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Its definently a swastika under the eagle.

11-15-2004, 10:02 AM	#7
cjeep85 User Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hey, I'm trying. These are the markings on the gun. The left side of the breech block has what looks like an N with something I can't make out over it. I don't know what/where a witness proof is. All info. is appreciated.

11-15-2004, 10:48 AM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	cjeep85, The effort is appreciated. The mark on the upper-left quadrant of the barrel, the crown-over-letter with the c/RC above it, is diagnostic, as is the similar figure on the receiver. The Witness Mark is the line stamped across the barrel/receiver juncture at the bottom of the receiver. It can just be seen in your second photo, but a much closer view might be revealing. This Luger appears to be assembled from parts which were set aside--never completed--in 1918, and made into a gun some time later. There is more to tell here, but the breechblock marking is actually rather crucial to completing the story. A closeup might allow some of the more experienced collectors here to help determine what the figure actually is. --Dwight

11-15-2004, 11:48 AM	#9
cjeep85 User Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Still trying. This is the left side of the breechblock. Its an N with possibly a crown over it. This is the witness mark. It may apprear slightly off but its not. The marks line-up perfectly with each other. I'm trying to get an idea of the value of this Luger. Thanks for all the help.

11-15-2004, 11:40 PM	#10
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	cjeep85, By all appearances this is a parts assembly rework Luger. It is very difficult to make a complete determination, as some of the stamps are not exactly as expected, and the barrel "stick eagle" is not close-up enough to see determining fine detail. The receiver (and presumably barrel) are originally of Erfurt manufacture. This can be told by your first photograph, which has the flat machined into the front edge necessary for an LP-08 (Artillery) rear sight. In 1916 a mandate was issued for all Luger receivers to be manufactured with this cut; Erfurt followed this mandate, DWM did not. The receiver has only the leftmost inspector mark, and a revisions-commission stamp above it. This was the first receiver inspector stamp applied to a Luger, certifying that the receiver has been hardened; the date is stamped at the same time. The crowns for the other two inspector's stamps were applied at the same time. Apparently some flaw was found with it, and the part was taken from the production line and submitted to the Revisions-Commission. The barrel was sent to the Revisions-Commission as well. It appears that the receiver and barrel never made it back into the production line from the Commission, whether by design or by happenstance. It is not clear whether the barrel and receiver were mated at this time. By the terms of the Treaty of Versailles after WWI, gun manufacturers were forbidden to manufacture new military-style weapons. This did not apply to rework and assembly from existing parts however, and "puzzle Lugers" like this one were put together for sale for cash flow income and surreptitious internal use. The eagle/swasitka on the right receiver was used from 1937 through 1942. In Costanzo's magnum opus on Luger markings it is shown in combination with quite a few other markings, missing on this gun. It might be possible to focus in on the time frame a bit more if it were possible to see the detail of the barrel mark. The figure on the breechblock is a crown-over-N, the commercial firing proof. This mark is not normally found in combination with the eagles on the right side of this Luger. To all appearances this is a very nice older parts assembly-rework, likely original (c/N notwithstanding). --Dwight