Luger identification

mkarpov · 10-14-2013, 12:30 PM

Hello,

Just acquired my very first Luger pistol from a collector in a barter for other items. He did not have any provenance on it, only saying he had purchased it for around $800 and that is was a mass-made "shooter" as opposed to coming from a specific original owner. I do know the manufacturer is Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM) and it's a Luger P08 (Parabellum). Basically that's about it. I have no idea what all the other markings and numbers are and would really appreciate tapping into all of your expertise on this forum to help me date this pistol and learn more about it.

If you cannot read any of the #s on the photos let me know and I'll tell you.

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DavidJayUden · 10-14-2013, 01:28 PM

Interesting gun. Mismatched sideplate and maybe safety, originally a commercial marked gun. The markings under the barrel are the required info. for import into the USA. The front sight makes me think of a Finnish Luger. Not clear about the numbers on the back.
It would be interesting to find out if the grips are orig. WW2 German, and the magazine, although chipped, is also good property.
Welcome aboard.
dju

mrerick · 10-14-2013, 03:44 PM

Your Luger is made of a mix of parts from different eras. The grips and magazine are late WW-II (1941-1942). The crown/N marked receiver is a commercial gun's receiver. My guess is that it's from a very early DWM Luger because of the proof mark's position. The extractor looks to be from an Erfurt. The side plate and take down lever are numbered in the commercial style from different guns. Barrel looks replaced and perhaps aftermarket, or Finnish as mentioned by David.

Is something ground off the barrel above the import mark? If so, you might have a problem. I believe that CAI sometimes serial number marked their imports, and that could be a ground off serial number (which is illegal in the USA). Is there a serial number and suffix letter on the barrel, and on the front of the frame?

My guess is that you may have an early Finnish or Russian Capture import made up of parts from several guns.

Edward Tinker · 10-14-2013, 03:55 PM

Does it has a serial number on the front of the frame?

If it does, then the thought of a ground off serial number on the barrel is a moot point, the barrel is not what is considered the frame (receiver for most guns).

I have had lugers without a number on the front of the frame and the number on the side was considered okay - so, again, it would be okay, heck, you don't know what might have been ground off...

kzullick · 10-14-2013, 06:12 PM

How is illegal not to have a serial number in the USA when many guns made in the USA were manufactured without any serial numbers?

gunbugs · 10-14-2013, 07:31 PM

Many firearms before 1968 were made without serial numbers. Typically these were inexpensive firearms. The cost of stamping a number would have materially increased the cost of manufacture, so it wasn't done to help keep the price low.
That being said, it is a violation of Federal law to buy, sell, or possess a firearm that has an REMOVED, OBLITERATED or ALTERED serial number. USC Title 27 CFR Chapter II(C) Part 478.34. It doesn't matter when or where it was made.
Again,there are many firearms that were made with no serial number, so it is best to be informed about what you are buying or trading and be aware of typical serial number placement and "font" for a typical specimen. Lugers in particular shouldn't be hard to figure out.

DavidJayUden · 10-14-2013, 07:35 PM

It probably goes back to records showing what was manufactured w/o numbers. Or date of manufacture.
You can bet that the ATF has special rules and specialists regarding this issue.
As I recall you can make your own gun and not number it, but you can't sell it without numbers. As in buy an AK parts set, buy a partially complete receiver (a flat piece of metal), bend it up, drill a couple of holes, and away you go.
They do encourage you to number it and sent the info. in.
dju

John Sabato · 10-15-2013, 11:26 AM

I believe the grips are genuine original German grips and in an of themselves are worth a few hundred dollars... Since this gun is a shooter, offer the grips for sale and get yourself a nice set of reproduction walnut grips... you will make some collector happy and will probably profit even more from your barter.

mkarpov · 10-15-2013, 11:39 AM

Thank you very much so far for all the replies. I'm assuming the front of the frame is the area just underneath the barrel if it were pointed at me. Just above the front of the trigger guard, correct? I did not photograph that area because the number there is the same 8905 that appears on the second photo down. So, is 8905 the serial #? Also, your guess is as good as mine as to what that flat area is on the barrel above the wording.

cloverdale · 10-15-2013, 02:58 PM

Hello! I am new to the Forum! I recently bought a Luger P-08 4 inch at an auction! I am having troubles finding a new barrel to replace the old one, It is completely almost destroyed with no rifling left and chunks missing from within! any suggestions would be great! thanks... Elijah

mkarpov · 10-15-2013, 03:00 PM

Elijah, please create a specific new topic for yourself and your barrel needs.

Geo99 · 10-16-2013, 12:49 AM

Hello Mr. Karpov,

I think accurately dating this pistol is pretty much impossible, due to the mix of parts and grinding done on it. I was going to say you have a real frankenluger, but I see you just indicated that the upper and lower serial nums match - that means at least the frame and barrel extension (what you might call the receiver) are matching, so tis' not so bad.

Ed is correct, a missing serial num on the barrel is no big deal in the USA, but maybe you are not in USA?

The headspace and front of the breechblock looks funny to me and chipped up. Have you shot it?

If not I would only load one round for the first few a few shots just to be safe - However it may interest you to know that a Luger cannot seriously injure the shooter if it fails, even in a catastrophic failure. Can't say that about an Orgties or a Steyr-Hahn.

- Geo

mkarpov · 10-16-2013, 08:45 AM

Thanks Geo, yes I am in the U.S. so it's good to hear about the serial #s being okay. Haven't shot it yet, but the gentleman I acquired it from had shot it a lot for target practice.

So, in summary it sounds from all of the replies so far that this Luger is a real "mutt" because of all the different parts. If I may ask, based on the matching serial #s of the barrel extension and frame, could you at least date that portion of the pistol? I want to be able to at least give it somewhat of a year of identity.

Arizona Slim · 10-16-2013, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cloverdale

Hello! I am new to the Forum! I recently bought a Luger P-08 4 inch at an auction! I am having troubles finding a new barrel to replace the old one, It is completely almost destroyed with no rifling left and chunks missing from within! any suggestions would be great! thanks... Elijah

hi Elijah and welcome to the forum, as mkarpov suggested if you post your request for information as to where to purchase a replacement barrel for your Luger as a New Topic I'm sure you will receive some suggestions, a good place to start would be ebay as there are always several Luger barrels offered for sale, good luck.

Lon

George Anderson · 10-16-2013, 12:00 PM

I believe that the nitro proof on the right side of the frame could be East German.

10-14-2013, 12:30 PM	#1
mkarpov New User Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Luger identification Hello, Just acquired my very first Luger pistol from a collector in a barter for other items. He did not have any provenance on it, only saying he had purchased it for around $800 and that is was a mass-made "shooter" as opposed to coming from a specific original owner. I do know the manufacturer is Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM) and it's a Luger P08 (Parabellum). Basically that's about it. I have no idea what all the other markings and numbers are and would really appreciate tapping into all of your expertise on this forum to help me date this pistol and learn more about it. If you cannot read any of the #s on the photos let me know and I'll tell you. Photos follow:

10-14-2013, 03:44 PM	#3
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,907 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,108 Times in 1,509 Posts	Your Luger is made of a mix of parts from different eras. The grips and magazine are late WW-II (1941-1942). The crown/N marked receiver is a commercial gun's receiver. My guess is that it's from a very early DWM Luger because of the proof mark's position. The extractor looks to be from an Erfurt. The side plate and take down lever are numbered in the commercial style from different guns. Barrel looks replaced and perhaps aftermarket, or Finnish as mentioned by David. Is something ground off the barrel above the import mark? If so, you might have a problem. I believe that CAI sometimes serial number marked their imports, and that could be a ground off serial number (which is illegal in the USA). Is there a serial number and suffix letter on the barrel, and on the front of the frame? My guess is that you may have an early Finnish or Russian Capture import made up of parts from several guns. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-14-2013, 03:55 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	Does it has a serial number on the front of the frame? If it does, then the thought of a ground off serial number on the barrel is a moot point, the barrel is not what is considered the frame (receiver for most guns). I have had lugers without a number on the front of the frame and the number on the side was considered okay - so, again, it would be okay, heck, you don't know what might have been ground off... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-15-2013, 11:26 AM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I believe the grips are genuine original German grips and in an of themselves are worth a few hundred dollars... Since this gun is a shooter, offer the grips for sale and get yourself a nice set of reproduction walnut grips... you will make some collector happy and will probably profit even more from your barter. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-16-2013, 12:49 AM	#12
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 398 Thanks: 102 Thanked 125 Times in 74 Posts	Hello Mr. Karpov, I think accurately dating this pistol is pretty much impossible, due to the mix of parts and grinding done on it. I was going to say you have a real frankenluger, but I see you just indicated that the upper and lower serial nums match - that means at least the frame and barrel extension (what you might call the receiver) are matching, so tis' not so bad. Ed is correct, a missing serial num on the barrel is no big deal in the USA, but maybe you are not in USA? The headspace and front of the breechblock looks funny to me and chipped up. Have you shot it? If not I would only load one round for the first few a few shots just to be safe - However it may interest you to know that a Luger cannot seriously injure the shooter if it fails, even in a catastrophic failure. Can't say that about an Orgties or a Steyr-Hahn. - Geo __________________ "Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you can find a rock." - Will Rogers

10-14-2013, 01:28 PM	#2
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Interesting gun. Mismatched sideplate and maybe safety, originally a commercial marked gun. The markings under the barrel are the required info. for import into the USA. The front sight makes me think of a Finnish Luger. Not clear about the numbers on the back. It would be interesting to find out if the grips are orig. WW2 German, and the magazine, although chipped, is also good property. Welcome aboard. dju

10-14-2013, 06:12 PM	#5
kzullick Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: East Berwick, Pennsylvania Posts: 227 Thanks: 614 Thanked 100 Times in 81 Posts	How is illegal not to have a serial number in the USA when many guns made in the USA were manufactured without any serial numbers?

10-14-2013, 07:31 PM	#6
gunbugs Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska. Home of the best moose. Posts: 656 Thanks: 359 Thanked 1,174 Times in 392 Posts	Many firearms before 1968 were made without serial numbers. Typically these were inexpensive firearms. The cost of stamping a number would have materially increased the cost of manufacture, so it wasn't done to help keep the price low. That being said, it is a violation of Federal law to buy, sell, or possess a firearm that has an REMOVED, OBLITERATED or ALTERED serial number. USC Title 27 CFR Chapter II(C) Part 478.34. It doesn't matter when or where it was made. Again,there are many firearms that were made with no serial number, so it is best to be informed about what you are buying or trading and be aware of typical serial number placement and "font" for a typical specimen. Lugers in particular shouldn't be hard to figure out.

10-14-2013, 07:35 PM	#7
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	It probably goes back to records showing what was manufactured w/o numbers. Or date of manufacture. You can bet that the ATF has special rules and specialists regarding this issue. As I recall you can make your own gun and not number it, but you can't sell it without numbers. As in buy an AK parts set, buy a partially complete receiver (a flat piece of metal), bend it up, drill a couple of holes, and away you go. They do encourage you to number it and sent the info. in. dju

10-15-2013, 11:39 AM	#9
mkarpov New User Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you very much so far for all the replies. I'm assuming the front of the frame is the area just underneath the barrel if it were pointed at me. Just above the front of the trigger guard, correct? I did not photograph that area because the number there is the same 8905 that appears on the second photo down. So, is 8905 the serial #? Also, your guess is as good as mine as to what that flat area is on the barrel above the wording.

10-15-2013, 02:58 PM	#10
cloverdale New User Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Iowa Posts: 1 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello! I am new to the Forum! I recently bought a Luger P-08 4 inch at an auction! I am having troubles finding a new barrel to replace the old one, It is completely almost destroyed with no rifling left and chunks missing from within! any suggestions would be great! thanks... Elijah

10-15-2013, 03:00 PM	#11
mkarpov New User Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Elijah, please create a specific new topic for yourself and your barrel needs.

10-16-2013, 08:45 AM	#13
mkarpov New User Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Geo, yes I am in the U.S. so it's good to hear about the serial #s being okay. Haven't shot it yet, but the gentleman I acquired it from had shot it a lot for target practice. So, in summary it sounds from all of the replies so far that this Luger is a real "mutt" because of all the different parts. If I may ask, based on the matching serial #s of the barrel extension and frame, could you at least date that portion of the pistol? I want to be able to at least give it somewhat of a year of identity.

10-16-2013, 12:00 PM	#15
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,528 Times in 787 Posts	I believe that the nitro proof on the right side of the frame could be East German.