Luger factory accuracy

[EdinFla]

There is a concept in experimental design termed "confounding". What this means is that if you have two things going on at one time you really cannot separate out their individual effects.

As an example, suppose I want to determine how accurate a pistol is. I select some number of people and have them shoot then score the targets. What does that tell us?

Well, it tells us the accuracy obtained by a random group of people. It does not speak to the weapon whatsoever. My shooters could have physical disabilities, poor vision and varying levels of experience shooting. The results are hopelessly confounded. The results are the composite of the shooter and the gun.

Which brings us to Lugers. I have read that Mauser used employees to test lugers for (presumably) accuracy. These employees were "trained". They practiced a lot and were rewarded for their performance. My question is "why"? Again, the results are confounded. Shooter and weapon. Why would they have not used a mechanical rest that would take the human element out?

Seems really odd.

It is really sloppy research.

[Doubs]

Interesting question.

IF I had to guess, I'd say that it was related to time and expense. A mechanical devise would almost surely have required using the frame without grips to be securely fastened. The time required to attach and detach each pistol would have been excessive IMO. A trained individual, OTOH, could load and fire many pistols in the same time it took to attach and detach one pistol from a fixture.

Remember too that these are COMBAT pistols and accuracy standards would be different than for target pistols. Even so, Lugers, in general, are quite accurate... better than one might expect.

[Mac Cat]

Wouldn't the stock lug make it easy to set-up for those lugers that had a lug ?

Maybe somebody has some picture of the test firing ?

[G.T.]

Hi EdinFlo, The quest for accuracy in a luger, as far as acceptable factory accuracy, starts with design parameters, as in what can reasonably be expected with the design, production methods and tolerances? So, before it ever gets tested, one or all, they know what to expect. Just for giggles and smiles, let's say inside 3" at 25 yards. And, this would be an outside limit parameter, can't get too accurate, so anything tighter is better. Now take an excellent shooter, average or above physically abilities, and make them the test shooter. I'll bet after a couple of thousand rounds, they can shoot well inside any of the reject limits, or outside parameters, set forth earlier? In fact, I viewed a war documentary where women were function and proof testing 1911A1's and it was incredible! I always thought 1 proof round test, and a mag for function, not hardly! They loaded and ran several mags thru the gun and if I remember some down range instead of a trap... I'm betting those women, who shot hundreds of thousands of rounds, could shoot the pants off most of the excellent shooters today... Now there is some evidence that the same was probably done with Lugers, as I believe the slight miss alignment of the index marks show additional adjustment... But alas, none left to tell the tale... ...so we can only speculate... best to all, til....lat'r....GT
BTW, there are no unfired military guns!!! Some look that way, but they all got tested, some a lot, prior to issue!

[Major Tom]

At what range (yards) were 7.65 lugers sighted in? I have heard 50 yards?

[EdinFla]

According to Goertz the range was 50 meters (54 yards in real units or 160 feet) that is a non-trivial distance for a handgun. We might ask "why" to that too.

I don't think that even an experienced shooter could show any sort of accuracy without considered aiming.

This whole thing seems un-german somehow.

[Norme]

The earliest P08's (1909-1913) were sighted in at 100 meters, a little over 300'. This was found to be unrealistic, and when these guns were recalled to be retrofitted with a hold-open the front sight blade was switched to one about 0.5mm taller. This resulted in a sight-in distance of 50 meters and there it remained until the end of military production.
The Lugers that were issued to Bavarian units missed out on the recall and most them still have the 100 meter front sight blade.
Norm

[LU1900]

Norme : are you sure ??, my info said 75m not 100 and after new front sight for 50m

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by LU1900

Norme : are you sure ??, my info said 75m not 100 and after new front sight for 50m

Norme is pretty much on the nose. Gortz & Sturgess say that the original military issue Lugers were sighted point blank between 80 & 110 meters. Those returned for addition of the hold open were also refitted with new front sights that brought zero to 50 meters. That became standard for all Lugers throught the end of production. G&S, page 1100, Red Books.

[Edward Tinker]

I seem to remember reading about DWM shooting ranges. Like most, they are put into a rest, locked down and shot.
It is more to test the gun, then showing super accuracy.
But I could be remembering wrong...

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

I seem to remember reading about DWM shooting ranges. Like most, they are put into a rest, locked down and shot.
It is more to test the gun, then showing super accuracy.
But I could be remembering wrong...

Doesn't Gerben have a pic here somewhere showing the rest the Luger was secured in for firing???

Like this...

[mrerick]

The firing tests were intended to prove a number of things for the firearm.

Overpressure proof rounds confirmed that the receiver and barrel could tolerate high pressure without damage.

Also, the firearm cycled and operated properly.

Targets confirmed accuracy to an acceptable level at the designated range.

For safety, it's likely that a firing fixture of some type was used. I can't remember details, but I think that there are photos of the firing points of the test range in the Mauser archive.

[Doubs]

Gortz & Sturgess address test firing for accuracy in chapters 6 & 8 in the red books.

Prior to 1918 at DWM, 8 rounds were fired hand-held from a rest at 50 meters. At least four shots had register within a target 15cm high by 10cm wide to pass. Then another 8 rounds were rapid fired into a backstop for function testing. All by hand. Special ammunition assembled for accuracy and reliability and made by DWM was used. After firing the military approval stamp was applied and the guns were then cleaned and shipped. G&S don't say but I suspect that Erfurt followed similar procedures.

After 1918 there is no documentation describing the procedure but it's likely that DWM continued as before. When Mauser took over production, they fired 8 rounds for accuracy at 50 meters. The pistols were handheld over sand bags and Lugers were shot using a shoulder stock. It required 5 of the 8 rounds to be in or touching a 17cm circle. Failing pistols were repaired - in most cases a simple front sight adjustment - and tested again. An additional 8 shots were fired for function.

There's additional information in G&S for anyone who has the red books.

[Kiwi]

Testing varies with what results are wanted
I have a PPK that included a test target shot at 15 meters. 3 shots 2in high, 2 in right. with fixed sights I can use 'Kentucky' windage and hit center pretty well
I bought a rifle that had 3 empty cartridges - to prove the firearm functioned

I have a sextant (Freiberger, East German) with a chart showing the error at every 5 degrees of the arc (tiny, tiny, tiny) variations but they are there

1911 for military issue are not precision target weapons, but they have to function in the mud.
Lugers do not like the mud so much, but were a military issue for multiple Countries implying reliability.

[G.T.]

Man, that bench rest set up looks overly complicated. Bet he got paid by the hour! ... best, GT

[Heinz]

Overcomplicated for a DWM machinist?? What I find odd is it appears that part of the mounting is inserted in the mag well which would suggest this particular machine rest was loaded single rounds from the top. And the pistol looks like a short frame with a grip safety. Swiss?

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by Heinz

Overcomplicated for a DWM machinist?? What I find odd is it appears that part of the mounting is inserted in the mag well which would suggest this particular machine rest was loaded single rounds from the top. And the pistol looks like a short frame with a grip safety. Swiss?

Looks to me to be a 1929 Swiss.

[cirelaw]

Were swiss better

[Vlim]

There is an interesting document, labeled as:
H.Dv. 242
M.Dv.Nr. 536
L. Dv.404/1

called 'Anschiessen der Handfeurwaffen und M.G. (Erdwaffen)'.

or 'Test firing of hand guns and Machine Guns (ground weapons)'.

On Page 16 it describes the procedure for the P08:

Pistols must be test fired to determine their accuracy when taken into service. Furthermore when in service a new front sight or rear toggle piece has been installed, when bad accuracy is observed or after repairs at the Heeresfeldzeugwerkstatt, also when the test firing has already been done there.

Fring will be done at 50 meters while sitting at a test firing table.

The sights may not be bare metal and must be protected from sun light.

No test firing may be done during bad weather conditions.

The shooter supports the elbows, grips the pistol grip with both hands and the bottom on a sufficiently high enough sandbag. It is to take into account that the barrel of the pistol is kept free of the sandbag. Then 5 shots are fired at the test firing target (annex 14).

The pistol succeeds when 4 out of 5 hits are inside the rectangle. If this is not the case, the test firing has to be done by another qualified shooter.

If this is also unsuccessful, the pistol is to be handed over to the Waffenmeister or Waffenfeldwebel for inspection and repair. If problems with the pistol are determined for which the Heeresfeldzeugwerkstatt is responsible, the pistol is sent there.

The results of the test firing are noted by the overseer at the target with a fountain pen on a grouping pattern (smaller test target, size 1:10), annex 15, and signed, After test firing, day, name of the test firing shooter and weapon number are recorded on the grouping pattern.

The grouping patterns are to be archived and presented during weapons inspections.

Berlin, the 18th of May, 1936.

Below are scans of the referenced targets in the text above, as well as the front and back of an original, blank, grouping pattern page as described in the HdV.

[Heinz]

Thanks Gerben. That is interesting and very German :-)