1900 AE - Opinions/Help...

Pete Ebbink · 11-06-2003, 01:46 PM

Had a seller of a 1900 AE (non-Test piece) send me some detailed photos...

Just wondering if folks here agree with some "red flags" that I think I see...

I tend to conclude the following, but being a novice of less than 2 years, would appreciate other opinions and comments :

1. Lack of a "polished" area is troublesome.
2. The lack of depth and letter definition in the "Germany" stamping leads me to believe some sanding occured.
3. Lack of any "halo" around the barrel stampings.
4. Uniform blueing in all the letter/number stampings.

My conclusion is/was this was a fairly good refinish, but one nevertherless...one that is old enough to show some honest patina, though...

In the defence of the retail seller of this piece, it is not being advertised as "original finish"...rather the sales ad is "silent" either way...

Appreciate your time and help...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Herb · 11-06-2003, 02:03 PM

Pete, I agree with you. The safety 'well' is just too smooth, some maching marks should be seen here. I think it is refinished, nicely though.

Imperial Arms · 11-06-2003, 06:22 PM

I nice restoration good.

Albert

Doubs · 11-06-2003, 11:04 PM

I also think it's been refinished but, as has been said, a very professional job judging from what I can see. I am not surprised at the lack of machine marks in the safety area as early Lugers were finished to the very highest of standards. My father often remarked about the finish of early Lugers he owned back in the 1920's and how all external machine marks had been polished out.

Hugh · 11-06-2003, 11:12 PM

I agree that it looks like a nice refinish job. <img border="0" alt="[oops]" title="" src="graemlins/oops.gif" />

Ron Wood · 11-07-2003, 12:36 AM

The early Lugers received some of the highest quality finishes of any mass produced item, to the point that the machine marks occasionally were virtually undetectable, much like the example shown. However, Pete pretty much zeroed in on the most significant indicator of refinishing with the statement "Lack of a "polished" area is troublesomeÃ¢?Â. On early Lugers, the polished safety area was milled deep enough that there is a discernable edge to the polished area and visible mill marks. Simply re-bluing will leave traces of this milling. On the example shown, the entire area has been fine polished thereby completely removing the safety milling. A restorer or forger will re-cut the polished area. To his/her credit, the individual that expertly refinished this Luger did not. It is a fine looking piece, but it is refinished.

Now, for another topic that has been nagging at me that this Luger brings up. The lack of halo around the serial number. I canÃ¢??t explain it, but I have observed that the early Lugers that have numbers stamped on the curved part of the barrel flange tend to not show a halo. You can see that the metal is Ã¢??upsetÃ¢?Â around the individual numbers, but the blue usually does not lighten or Ã¢??haloÃ¢?Â. However on Lugers where the numbers are stamped further out on the barrel on the Ã¢??straightÃ¢?Â part, the halo shows up. I would appreciate it if other early Luger owners could check to see if they observe the same lack of halo in this area.

drbuster · 11-07-2003, 09:07 AM

Good observation, Ron. I checked my 1900 AE, as well a my 1906 Commercial. Both have the serials on the curved part of the barrel (We docs call it the proximal part) and both are WITHOUT the halos.

Ron Wood · 11-07-2003, 10:10 AM

OK Doc, then I amend what I said to "the number halo appears on the distal part of the barrel".

Thanks for the input on your Luger markings.

Pete Ebbink · 11-08-2003, 03:04 PM

Thanks all for your inputs and help...

Here is the link to this gun, if folks want to see more photos...

http://www.pugsguns.com/displayItem.do?id=463

The fellows were very helpful with sending photos of areas I asked for...and I sensed they appreciated the feedback I gave them about the restoration work...

I appreciate gun retailers that are starting to provide good resolution photos and are willling to send more in the course of responding to a customer's inquiries...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Doug G. · 11-09-2003, 08:11 AM

One more thing I see wrong. Look close at the extractor. Looks like a late Swiss style with heavier front half.

Lugerdoc · 11-09-2003, 09:39 AM

Doug, I agree that the extractor is a Swiss type replacement. I also think that the serial numbers on the barrel are also suspect. Perhaps this was also replaced and the numbers engraved rather than stamped. TH

Pete Ebbink · 11-09-2003, 03:57 PM

Doug and Tom,

Great catch...on the extractor...

I believe the Swiss replacement, reinforced ones are usually seen "in the blue" so seeing it "strawed" also adds to the refinish confirmations...

Appreciate everyone's time helping me out with this pistol...!

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Pete Ebbink · 12-16-2003, 05:16 PM

Well...this one sold...

http://www.pugsguns.com/displayItem.do?id=463

Hope it did not go "out the door" as original...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Vlim · 12-17-2003, 08:47 AM

Hi,

Maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me, but I'd swear I see traces of some sort of 'safety' marking on the second photo?

John Sabato · 12-17-2003, 10:07 AM

Hi Gerben,

Your comment urged me to take a much closer look, but even under magnification, and high contrast and negative images I can't see evidence of a weld repair and resurfacing to remove the "gesichert". The surface of this area looks original to me as far as metal preparation goes... I can't speak to whether or not the metal has been refinished.

Pete Ebbink · 12-17-2003, 12:36 PM

Hello John & Gerben,

I think on a 1900 AE, the "polished" area of the safety would be visible when the lever is in its upward position...since this is a grip safety model...it should not have "Gesichert"...at all...in either the upper or lower position.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

John Sabato · 12-17-2003, 01:46 PM

Pete, I think Gerben's concern was that this was not a genuine 1900 AE...

Pete Ebbink · 12-17-2003, 02:18 PM

Thanks, John S.,

Silly of me to miss the obvious in Gerben's intent...

I will wear my "bone head" hat for the remainder of the day... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Ron Wood · 12-17-2003, 03:15 PM

Pete,
You can borrow my hat. It is badly worn from frequent use.

Vlim · 12-18-2003, 03:01 PM

Hi,

I'm still not sure, it looks like something has been written on the metal surface, that left a slight trace on the blueing. It's very superficial.

Oh well, maybe I'm just starting to 'see things'

11-06-2003, 01:46 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	1900 AE - Opinions/Help... Had a seller of a 1900 AE (non-Test piece) send me some detailed photos... Just wondering if folks here agree with some "red flags" that I think I see... I tend to conclude the following, but being a novice of less than 2 years, would appreciate other opinions and comments : 1. Lack of a "polished" area is troublesome. 2. The lack of depth and letter definition in the "Germany" stamping leads me to believe some sanding occured. 3. Lack of any "halo" around the barrel stampings. 4. Uniform blueing in all the letter/number stampings. My conclusion is/was this was a fairly good refinish, but one nevertherless...one that is old enough to show some honest patina, though... In the defence of the retail seller of this piece, it is not being advertised as "original finish"...rather the sales ad is "silent" either way... Appreciate your time and help... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

11-06-2003, 02:03 PM	#2
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Pete, I agree with you. The safety 'well' is just too smooth, some maching marks should be seen here. I think it is refinished, nicely though. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

11-06-2003, 11:12 PM	#5
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	I agree that it looks like a nice refinish job. <img border="0" alt="[oops]" title="" src="graemlins/oops.gif" /> __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

11-07-2003, 12:36 AM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	The early Lugers received some of the highest quality finishes of any mass produced item, to the point that the machine marks occasionally were virtually undetectable, much like the example shown. However, Pete pretty much zeroed in on the most significant indicator of refinishing with the statement "Lack of a "polished" area is troublesomeÃ¢?Â. On early Lugers, the polished safety area was milled deep enough that there is a discernable edge to the polished area and visible mill marks. Simply re-bluing will leave traces of this milling. On the example shown, the entire area has been fine polished thereby completely removing the safety milling. A restorer or forger will re-cut the polished area. To his/her credit, the individual that expertly refinished this Luger did not. It is a fine looking piece, but it is refinished. Now, for another topic that has been nagging at me that this Luger brings up. The lack of halo around the serial number. I canÃ¢??t explain it, but I have observed that the early Lugers that have numbers stamped on the curved part of the barrel flange tend to not show a halo. You can see that the metal is Ã¢??upsetÃ¢?Â around the individual numbers, but the blue usually does not lighten or Ã¢??haloÃ¢?Â. However on Lugers where the numbers are stamped further out on the barrel on the Ã¢??straightÃ¢?Â part, the halo shows up. I would appreciate it if other early Luger owners could check to see if they observe the same lack of halo in this area. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-07-2003, 10:10 AM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	OK Doc, then I amend what I said to "the number halo appears on the distal part of the barrel". Thanks for the input on your Luger markings. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-06-2003, 06:22 PM	#3
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	I nice restoration good. Albert

11-06-2003, 11:04 PM	#4
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	I also think it's been refinished but, as has been said, a very professional job judging from what I can see. I am not surprised at the lack of machine marks in the safety area as early Lugers were finished to the very highest of standards. My father often remarked about the finish of early Lugers he owned back in the 1920's and how all external machine marks had been polished out.

11-07-2003, 09:07 AM	#7
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Good observation, Ron. I checked my 1900 AE, as well a my 1906 Commercial. Both have the serials on the curved part of the barrel (We docs call it the proximal part) and both are WITHOUT the halos.

11-08-2003, 03:04 PM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks all for your inputs and help... Here is the link to this gun, if folks want to see more photos... http://www.pugsguns.com/displayItem.do?id=463 The fellows were very helpful with sending photos of areas I asked for...and I sensed they appreciated the feedback I gave them about the restoration work... I appreciate gun retailers that are starting to provide good resolution photos and are willling to send more in the course of responding to a customer's inquiries... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

11-09-2003, 08:11 AM	#10
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	One more thing I see wrong. Look close at the extractor. Looks like a late Swiss style with heavier front half. __________________ Suppose you were an idiot.....and suppose you were a member of Congress.....But I repeat myself" ~~ Mark Twain

11-09-2003, 09:39 AM	#11
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Doug, I agree that the extractor is a Swiss type replacement. I also think that the serial numbers on the barrel are also suspect. Perhaps this was also replaced and the numbers engraved rather than stamped. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-09-2003, 03:57 PM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Doug and Tom, Great catch...on the extractor... I believe the Swiss replacement, reinforced ones are usually seen "in the blue" so seeing it "strawed" also adds to the refinish confirmations... Appreciate everyone's time helping me out with this pistol...! Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

12-16-2003, 05:16 PM	#13
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Well...this one sold... http://www.pugsguns.com/displayItem.do?id=463 Hope it did not go "out the door" as original... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

12-17-2003, 08:47 AM	#14
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Hi, Maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me, but I'd swear I see traces of some sort of 'safety' marking on the second photo?

12-17-2003, 10:07 AM	#15
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Hi Gerben, Your comment urged me to take a much closer look, but even under magnification, and high contrast and negative images I can't see evidence of a weld repair and resurfacing to remove the "gesichert". The surface of this area looks original to me as far as metal preparation goes... I can't speak to whether or not the metal has been refinished. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-17-2003, 12:36 PM	#16
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello John & Gerben, I think on a 1900 AE, the "polished" area of the safety would be visible when the lever is in its upward position...since this is a grip safety model...it should not have "Gesichert"...at all...in either the upper or lower position. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

12-17-2003, 01:46 PM	#17
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Pete, I think Gerben's concern was that this was not a genuine 1900 AE... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-17-2003, 02:18 PM	#18
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks, John S., Silly of me to miss the obvious in Gerben's intent... I will wear my "bone head" hat for the remainder of the day... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

12-17-2003, 03:15 PM	#19
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Pete, You can borrow my hat. It is badly worn from frequent use. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-18-2003, 03:01 PM	#20
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Hi, I'm still not sure, it looks like something has been written on the metal surface, that left a slight trace on the blueing. It's very superficial. Oh well, maybe I'm just starting to 'see things'