.45 Cal. Luger No. 1...

Pete Ebbink · 07-25-2004, 10:21 PM

Got a hold of a reprint/copy of the 1907 US Test Trials Report (see my photo # 1), in which the .45 cal. Luger went head-to-head against other .45 cal. firearms.

On the Luger Forum in past discussions, there was usually some debate as to whether the .45 Luger shown in the Meadows/Matthews/Reese books was actually the # 1 Luger shot at the Trials.

In the Report on page 93; the ten (10) guns tested at the 1907 Trials are listed (see my photo # 2).

It might be significant that the .45 Luger is assigned weapon # 2 and at the end of the Report, where all weapons are photographed, Plate No. 2 (see my photo # 3) is of the .45 Luger. The numbering of the remaining pistols tested also align with the other "Plate Nos." assigned to the photos of the other guns tested.

Might this add a bit more creedance that the .45 Luger (# 1) with its odd grip angle was/is indeed the Luger shown in the Meadows/Matthews/ Reese books ?

Maybe # 1 was shot and the old Sid Abermann No.2 Luger with its "different" grip angle and different construction details was the gun kept in "reserve" during the Trials...?

p.s. Only 9 photographic plates are shown for the 10 guns. One plate is shown for both the single and double action versions of the Knoble automatic pistol...this happens at Plate No. 4. Plate No. 5 skips to gun # 6.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Edward Tinker · 07-25-2004, 10:31 PM

I haven't seen this report Ole Pete buddy? How many pages total? I am guessing that Reese's book covers most of this, but how and where can I get a copy?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Ed

Big Norm · 07-26-2004, 03:03 AM

Pete,
I compared the grip angle with one of my Lugers and I couldn't see a difference.Am I missing something? The only thing I see different is the trigger and the trigger guard.
Big Norm

Vlim · 07-26-2004, 06:01 AM

Hi Norm,

Of the 'original' .45s floating around, there are 2 distinct variations. The difference is mainly in grip shape (near the stock-lug area, or where it is on a P08) and the raking angle of the grip.

The photo shown in the 1907 trial report differs from other known DWM-made .45s, including the one that's currently known as the surviving 1907 test piece.

Of course this presents a bit of a problem:
-How likely is it that Georg Luger decided to knock up 2 distinctively different 1907-trial pieces?
-Were the trial pieces identical in shape?
-If so, why does the surviving gun doesn't look like a trial-piece?

Interestingly, the .45 carabine in Shattuck's collection has a shape identical to the one pictured in the US-trials (apart from the carabine modification, of course).

In my opinion the gun currently known to exist as the 1907-trial survivor isn't. (the 'sid aberman gun').

I believe that DWM-produced .45s come in two different shapes:
-The 2 identical 1907-trial pieces, made under GL's direct supervision.
-4 to 5 slightly modified .45s for tooling guidance and further testing.

Pete suggests that the 2 1907 trial pieces may have been 2 different set-ups, thus explaining how the surviving 1907-trial gun differs from the one pictured.

One interesting test fact: In order to improve feeding behaviour of the .45 test piece, the magazine's spring was clipped (shortened) a few times.

This image appeared in a previous thread and is taken from a German-language reprint of the 1907-trials. It is exactly the same picture, but the magazine image has been rotated to reduce the overall size of the picture. Note the shades and lighting, it's identical.

Vlim · 07-26-2004, 06:14 AM

The recent link, including grip angle and shape illustrations can be found in:

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lugerfo...c;f=8;t=001170

drbuster · 07-26-2004, 10:05 AM

Why two grip angles, one might ask? I have had Mike Krause talk to me about this issue many times. He, who has made several .45 Lugers, and is renown for this, says the earlier grip angle gave the gun a slightly awkward feel and made it instinctively point off target. Changing the angle corrected this. The former, he calls the "old model" the latter, the "new model". He is convinced that George Luger had big plans for the .45 Luger in the American commercial market but were permanently shelved by the outbreak of WW1.

lugerholsterrepair · 07-26-2004, 11:26 AM

Herb, A friend found a 1934 Luger holster you might be interested in. I sent you the link but it was returned. I will try again but just in case contact me if you are still looking for one.
Jerry Burney

lugerholsterepair@earthlink.net

719 942 4781

drbuster · 07-26-2004, 10:22 PM

Yes, yes, Jerry, I am interested!

Big Norm · 07-27-2004, 01:55 AM

Thank you everyone for a very interesting discussion.
Big Norm

Pete Ebbink · 07-27-2004, 11:54 AM

Hey Ed,

I think I may have picked it up at Reno, but just cannot be sure...might have also gotten it at Krause' shop...but I am drawing a blank.

It is a small booklet, with its 1st. page number starting at 83 (oddly) and runs through 116. This is followed by 9 pages (un-numbered) with the photographic plates of 9 out of 10 of the Trial guns...

I am guessing it is a xerox copy of an original report...as the font on the pages varies quite often in the text of the Report...as various letters and documents may have come in and been assembled as part of the Report.

A publisher's note on the cover of the opening page states :

" Published as a reference material 1969, James C. Tillinghast, Box 595, Marlow, NH, 03456 "

p.s. The 1st. M. Reese book you mentioned covered the US Trials of the 1,000 M1900 AE lugers in 7,65 cal. This Report covers the "other" Trials...the 1907 Trials of various .45 cal pistols (both semiauto and revolvers)...

Regards,

Pete.. <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-25-2004, 10:21 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	.45 Cal. Luger No. 1... Got a hold of a reprint/copy of the 1907 US Test Trials Report (see my photo # 1), in which the .45 cal. Luger went head-to-head against other .45 cal. firearms. On the Luger Forum in past discussions, there was usually some debate as to whether the .45 Luger shown in the Meadows/Matthews/Reese books was actually the # 1 Luger shot at the Trials. In the Report on page 93; the ten (10) guns tested at the 1907 Trials are listed (see my photo # 2). It might be significant that the .45 Luger is assigned weapon # 2 and at the end of the Report, where all weapons are photographed, Plate No. 2 (see my photo # 3) is of the .45 Luger. The numbering of the remaining pistols tested also align with the other "Plate Nos." assigned to the photos of the other guns tested. Might this add a bit more creedance that the .45 Luger (# 1) with its odd grip angle was/is indeed the Luger shown in the Meadows/Matthews/ Reese books ? Maybe # 1 was shot and the old Sid Abermann No.2 Luger with its "different" grip angle and different construction details was the gun kept in "reserve" during the Trials...? p.s. Only 9 photographic plates are shown for the 10 guns. One plate is shown for both the single and double action versions of the Knoble automatic pistol...this happens at Plate No. 4. Plate No. 5 skips to gun # 6. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-25-2004, 10:31 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	I haven't seen this report Ole Pete buddy? How many pages total? I am guessing that Reese's book covers most of this, but how and where can I get a copy? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-26-2004, 11:26 AM	#7
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Herb, A friend found a 1934 Luger holster you might be interested in. I sent you the link but it was returned. I will try again but just in case contact me if you are still looking for one. Jerry Burney lugerholsterepair@earthlink.net 719 942 4781 __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

07-26-2004, 03:03 AM	#3
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Pete, I compared the grip angle with one of my Lugers and I couldn't see a difference.Am I missing something? The only thing I see different is the trigger and the trigger guard. Big Norm

07-26-2004, 06:01 AM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Hi Norm, Of the 'original' .45s floating around, there are 2 distinct variations. The difference is mainly in grip shape (near the stock-lug area, or where it is on a P08) and the raking angle of the grip. The photo shown in the 1907 trial report differs from other known DWM-made .45s, including the one that's currently known as the surviving 1907 test piece. Of course this presents a bit of a problem: -How likely is it that Georg Luger decided to knock up 2 distinctively different 1907-trial pieces? -Were the trial pieces identical in shape? -If so, why does the surviving gun doesn't look like a trial-piece? Interestingly, the .45 carabine in Shattuck's collection has a shape identical to the one pictured in the US-trials (apart from the carabine modification, of course). In my opinion the gun currently known to exist as the 1907-trial survivor isn't. (the 'sid aberman gun'). I believe that DWM-produced .45s come in two different shapes: -The 2 identical 1907-trial pieces, made under GL's direct supervision. -4 to 5 slightly modified .45s for tooling guidance and further testing. Pete suggests that the 2 1907 trial pieces may have been 2 different set-ups, thus explaining how the surviving 1907-trial gun differs from the one pictured. One interesting test fact: In order to improve feeding behaviour of the .45 test piece, the magazine's spring was clipped (shortened) a few times. This image appeared in a previous thread and is taken from a German-language reprint of the 1907-trials. It is exactly the same picture, but the magazine image has been rotated to reduce the overall size of the picture. Note the shades and lighting, it's identical.

07-26-2004, 06:14 AM	#5
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	The recent link, including grip angle and shape illustrations can be found in: http://forums.lugerforum.com/lugerfo...c;f=8;t=001170

07-26-2004, 10:05 AM	#6
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Why two grip angles, one might ask? I have had Mike Krause talk to me about this issue many times. He, who has made several .45 Lugers, and is renown for this, says the earlier grip angle gave the gun a slightly awkward feel and made it instinctively point off target. Changing the angle corrected this. The former, he calls the "old model" the latter, the "new model". He is convinced that George Luger had big plans for the .45 Luger in the American commercial market but were permanently shelved by the outbreak of WW1.

07-26-2004, 10:22 PM	#8
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Yes, yes, Jerry, I am interested!

07-27-2004, 01:55 AM	#9
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Thank you everyone for a very interesting discussion. Big Norm

07-27-2004, 11:54 AM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hey Ed, I think I may have picked it up at Reno, but just cannot be sure...might have also gotten it at Krause' shop...but I am drawing a blank. It is a small booklet, with its 1st. page number starting at 83 (oddly) and runs through 116. This is followed by 9 pages (un-numbered) with the photographic plates of 9 out of 10 of the Trial guns... I am guessing it is a xerox copy of an original report...as the font on the pages varies quite often in the text of the Report...as various letters and documents may have come in and been assembled as part of the Report. A publisher's note on the cover of the opening page states : " Published as a reference material 1969, James C. Tillinghast, Box 595, Marlow, NH, 03456 " p.s. The 1st. M. Reese book you mentioned covered the US Trials of the 1,000 M1900 AE lugers in 7,65 cal. This Report covers the "other" Trials...the 1907 Trials of various .45 cal pistols (both semiauto and revolvers)... Regards, Pete.. <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />