Portuguese M2 question

kurusu · 07-30-2014, 06:31 AM

I've seen several mentions of a contract of approximatly 5000 pistols.

As far as I know the contract was signed for 3500 pistols only.

I would like feedback of any known M2 pistols with serial # over 3500.

Sergio Natali · 07-30-2014, 09:02 AM

Mario

I think the first Portugese purchase was at the end of 1903, (about 100 test guns) but the first real official delivery was dated in mid 1910 of about 5K "New Model" pistols 12 cm long barrel 7,65 Para gauge with "Seguranca" and "Caregada" inscripions under the safety and on the extractor.
my2 cents

Sergio

kurusu · 07-30-2014, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luger.parabellum

Mario

I think the first Portugese purchase was at the end of 1903, (about 100 test guns) but the first real official delivery was dated in mid 1910 of about 5K "New Model" pistols 12 cm long barrel 7,65 Para gauge with "Seguranca" and "Caregada" inscripions under the safety and on the extractor.
my2 cents

Sergio

M2s don't have "seguranca" only the bare metal contour of the safety lever. They only have the "carregada" inscription.

It's the 1934 GNR pistols that have both "carregada" and "seguranca".

John Sabato · 07-30-2014, 11:58 AM

A great discussion fellows... if you could post a published reference as the source of your thinking that would be helpful...

kurusu · 07-30-2014, 12:33 PM

The problem is my source is in portuguese.

http://www.portugalweb.net/historia/...bellum.asp.htm

Sergio Natali · 07-30-2014, 01:12 PM

... the 5000 pistols bought in 1910 were called " Pistolas Luger.Parabellum do Exércite Portugues Mo. 909"
The year after the Portuguese Navy ordered another 1000 Lugers cal 9 Parabellum wih a cm 10 long barrel.

In the October 1910 the king was exiliated, but only 800 of the so called "Pistola Luger-Parabellum da Marinha Portuguesa Mo910" had been delivered.
Since the contract had already been fully paid by the Portuguese, the remaining 200 were delivered sometime later but DWM ha to modify the mark on the chamber with an anchor with RP (Republica Portuguesa) and the goverment property stamps subsituted with the monogram "MP" (Marinha Portuguesa)

Some years later in 1935 Portugal ordered about 600 Luger pistols to MAUSER cal 7,65 for their Guardia Nacional Republicana. I've said "about" since different sources of information seem to give different figures. Anyway the name of these pistols was "Pistola Luger-Parabellum da GNR Mo. 935"
From September 1935 until October 1941 Portugal placed other orders to MAUSER. Probably the Portuguese Army wanted to substiute their old Savage and Nagant guns with the more modern P.08.
In the course of 1942 MAUSER delivered to Portugal some of the Lugers that the Heereswaffenamt had not used any more since the new "star" of those times was the new WALTHER "Heeres Pistole P.38"
To close this post these last 5000 Lugers were marked "byf" "42" Waffenamt "WaA135", some other (715 of them) had the "Mauser banner"

Sergio

John Sabato · 07-30-2014, 02:37 PM

If you use the BING translator you can translate the website, including subsequent pages into English:

Try clicking on this URL and see if it shows up in English... Good story and accompanying photographs!

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/b...bellum.asp.htm

MFC · 08-01-2014, 12:19 AM

Hi Mario,
The M2 in my avatar is S#3803.

kurusu · 08-01-2014, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFC

Hi Mario,
The M2 in my avatar is S#3803.

Thank you Mike.

Do you have another with the serial number under 3500 to make a comparison between them?

Douglas Jr. · 08-01-2014, 09:30 AM

To tell you the truth, it is the first time I see the mention that the Portuguese contract counted for only 3,500 guns - the 5,000 number is mentioned by every major author. However, it doen't mean they they are correct...
Question is where the 3,500 guns purchase data came from?
Saudações,
Douglas

kurusu · 08-01-2014, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Jr.

To tell you the truth, it is the first time I see the mention that the Portuguese contract counted for only 3,500 guns - the 5,000 number is mentioned by every major author. However, it doen't mean they they are correct...
Question is where the 3,500 guns purchase data came from?
Saudações,
Douglas

Olá Douglas

There's a link in my third post on this thread.

I've also seen the +-5000 figure everywhere until I stumbled on this article.

That's why I'm trying to figure out how many are around with serial numbers over the 3500 mark. And also what will be the highest serial number.

So far # 3803.

MFC · 08-01-2014, 11:03 PM

I've only got this one, although I usually pay attention to S#'s of others I see at shows are on the net in hopes of finding consecutive #'s. #3803 is still the highest number I've seen so far and I haven't seen another that was close.

I just found this old thread you might find interesting...
http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...highlight=3803

LugerVern · 08-02-2014, 12:15 AM

Some old Portuguese Luger data in the attached file.

A lot of guessing by a lot of people over the years.

There are not very many M2's listed over 3500 but there are a few as have been noted in this post.

We did a survey here on this form a few years back at that time not one M2 was listed as being over SN 3500.

The old books are largely wrong on the Portuguese data, those new books that simply copy that data are just as wrong.

It's a bit frustrating at times.

Contrary to popular belief the Portuguese often ordered very small batches of lugers. Keep an open mind when discussing serial number ranges.

Hope this helps

Vern

kurusu · 08-04-2014, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LugerVern

Some old Portuguese Luger data in the attached file.

A lot of guessing by a lot of people over the years.

There are not very many M2's listed over 3500 but there are a few as have been noted in this post.

We did a survey here on this form a few years back at that time not one M2 was listed as being over SN 3500.

The old books are largely wrong on the Portuguese data, those new books that simply copy that data are just as wrong.

It's a bit frustrating at times.

Contrary to popular belief the Portuguese often ordered very small batches of lugers. Keep an open mind when discussing serial number ranges.

Hope this helps

Vern

In this chart we see again 3500 instead of 5000.

And the lack of serial numbers showing in the 4000 range also points in that direction.

No explanation so far for MFC's # 3803.

Douglas Jr. · 08-04-2014, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LugerVern

A lot of guessing by a lot of people over the years.

The old books are largely wrong on the Portuguese data, those new books that simply copy that data are just as wrong.

It's a bit frustrating at times.

Vern

The same is valid for Brazilian Lugers.
That is why I started my database about that ones.
I will follow this topic closely, as both countries (Brazil and Portugal) purchased their 1906 Lugers in the same time frame.

By the way: out of curiosity, I just took a look at Simpson's inventory and they have five 1906 Portuguese Luger for sale now - the highest serial number noted is 33xx.

Douglas.

LU1900 · 08-04-2014, 12:56 PM

Got the 3902 M2 with pics in my data

kurusu · 08-05-2014, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LU1900

Got the 3902 M2 with pics in my data

How do I find the pictures?

LU1900 · 08-05-2014, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurusu

How do I find the pictures?

Perhaps a little kiss !!!

LU1900 · 08-05-2014, 06:53 PM

From my computer and other luger collector

kurusu · 08-06-2014, 03:57 AM

Highest number so far 3902.

Merci Patrice.

07-30-2014, 06:31 AM	#1
kurusu User Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,225 Thanks: 2,679 Thanked 929 Times in 509 Posts	Portuguese M2 question I've seen several mentions of a contract of approximatly 5000 pistols. As far as I know the contract was signed for 3500 pistols only. I would like feedback of any known M2 pistols with serial # over 3500.

07-30-2014, 09:02 AM	#2
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Mario I think the first Portugese purchase was at the end of 1903, (about 100 test guns) but the first real official delivery was dated in mid 1910 of about 5K "New Model" pistols 12 cm long barrel 7,65 Para gauge with "Seguranca" and "Caregada" inscripions under the safety and on the extractor. my2 cents Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

07-30-2014, 11:58 AM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	A great discussion fellows... if you could post a published reference as the source of your thinking that would be helpful... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-30-2014, 01:12 PM	#6
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	... the 5000 pistols bought in 1910 were called " Pistolas Luger.Parabellum do Exércite Portugues Mo. 909" The year after the Portuguese Navy ordered another 1000 Lugers cal 9 Parabellum wih a cm 10 long barrel. In the October 1910 the king was exiliated, but only 800 of the so called "Pistola Luger-Parabellum da Marinha Portuguesa Mo910" had been delivered. Since the contract had already been fully paid by the Portuguese, the remaining 200 were delivered sometime later but DWM ha to modify the mark on the chamber with an anchor with RP (Republica Portuguesa) and the goverment property stamps subsituted with the monogram "MP" (Marinha Portuguesa) Some years later in 1935 Portugal ordered about 600 Luger pistols to MAUSER cal 7,65 for their Guardia Nacional Republicana. I've said "about" since different sources of information seem to give different figures. Anyway the name of these pistols was "Pistola Luger-Parabellum da GNR Mo. 935" From September 1935 until October 1941 Portugal placed other orders to MAUSER. Probably the Portuguese Army wanted to substiute their old Savage and Nagant guns with the more modern P.08. In the course of 1942 MAUSER delivered to Portugal some of the Lugers that the Heereswaffenamt had not used any more since the new "star" of those times was the new WALTHER "Heeres Pistole P.38" To close this post these last 5000 Lugers were marked "byf" "42" Waffenamt "WaA135", some other (715 of them) had the "Mauser banner" Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list. Last edited by Sergio Natali; 07-30-2014 at 02:56 PM. Reason: misprinting... one of the many... sorry :-)

07-30-2014, 02:37 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	If you use the BING translator you can translate the website, including subsequent pages into English: Try clicking on this URL and see if it shows up in English... Good story and accompanying photographs! http://www.microsofttranslator.com/b...bellum.asp.htm __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-30-2014, 12:33 PM	#5
kurusu User Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,225 Thanks: 2,679 Thanked 929 Times in 509 Posts	The problem is my source is in portuguese. http://www.portugalweb.net/historia/...bellum.asp.htm

08-01-2014, 12:19 AM	#8
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Hi Mario, The M2 in my avatar is S#3803. __________________ Mike C.

08-01-2014, 09:30 AM	#10
Douglas Jr. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: South America Posts: 948 Thanks: 598 Thanked 584 Times in 254 Posts	To tell you the truth, it is the first time I see the mention that the Portuguese contract counted for only 3,500 guns - the 5,000 number is mentioned by every major author. However, it doen't mean they they are correct... Question is where the 3,500 guns purchase data came from? Saudações, Douglas

08-01-2014, 11:03 PM	#12
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	I've only got this one, although I usually pay attention to S#'s of others I see at shows are on the net in hopes of finding consecutive #'s. #3803 is still the highest number I've seen so far and I haven't seen another that was close. I just found this old thread you might find interesting... http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...highlight=3803 __________________ Mike C. Last edited by MFC; 08-02-2014 at 12:05 AM.

08-04-2014, 12:56 PM	#16
LU1900 User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE Posts: 900 Thanks: 35 Thanked 461 Times in 193 Posts	Got the 3902 M2 with pics in my data __________________ Best regards from France...Patrice https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2016/03/1...nd-snail-drum/

08-05-2014, 06:53 PM	#19
LU1900 User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE Posts: 900 Thanks: 35 Thanked 461 Times in 193 Posts	From my computer and other luger collector Attached Thumbnails __________________ Best regards from France...Patrice https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2016/03/1...nd-snail-drum/

08-06-2014, 03:57 AM	#20
kurusu User Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,225 Thanks: 2,679 Thanked 929 Times in 509 Posts	Highest number so far 3902. Merci Patrice.