The numbering system of postwar commercial

[alvin]

Acquired a very decent Weimar Alphabet from Ed. s/n 1323n, unlike military guns, it has no year stamp over the chamber. I am wondering the numbering system of postwar commercials -- did they follow 1- 10000, 1a - 10000a, etc, repeat every year? or, was it a single numbering system across years of production, never repeats because there was no year stamp?

Another thing not clear to me -- 1 - 10000 were used in prewar 1900. Were they skipped in 1920 to avoid confusion?

Final question... I heard DWM/BKIW also numbering postwar commercials following prewar sequence on some guns, starting from somewhere beyond seventy thousand. Any reason why they maintained two numbering systems?

[Dwight Gruber]

Alvin,

Commercial Luger numbering is in an essentially unbroken sequence, but with a change in enumeration.

Numbering started, putatively with serial number 1, in 1900; and continued into the five digit range. By 1921 the numbers had reached 90000.

There is no knowing the actual reason for the change which occurred that year, but a rapidly approaching six-digit number begins to become impractical in the space available on the front of a Luger frame. At approximately sn 92000 DWM shifted over to the military-style numbering system, and continued with sn 2000i. In the numbering system 1-9999, 1a-9999a, 1b-9999b.....etc., 2000i is the numeric equivalent to 92000.

The changeover date is deduced from the observation that there are both five-digit and i suffix commercial Lugers dated 1921. It is true also, that there are very sporadic commercial guns reported between sn 92000-96000 and with an i suffix before sn 2000; there is no good explanation for the discrepancy.

--Dwight

[alvin]

Thanks for the explaination. I have another generic question regarding the suffixed numbering system. You mentioned 1 - 9999, 1a - 9999a, etc, each block contains 9999 guns, not ten thousand. Is there a gun numbered 10000a? Or, each block just contains 9999 guns?

[Don M]

Alvin - just 9999 to keep the number to a maximum of four digits.

[Dwight Gruber]

Alvin,

Your question engages a subject of some controversy.

First, I have no reports of any Alphabet Commercial Lugers with the serial number 10000letter.

Conventional wisdom has it that military Lugers, using the same numberletter system are numbered in lettered ranges of 10,000, numbered 1letter-9999letter. Some collectors point out that a ten-thousand gun range should be numbered 1letter-10000letter, there being no serial number 0letter. They refer to the one or two known reports of military Lugers actually having a serial number of 10000letter.

There is of course no answer for this; despite the odd report the suffix range (it projects an erroneous implication to speak of them as "blocks") is generally accepted to extend to 9999letter.

--Dwight

[Lugerdoc]

I once owned a P38 #10000e. It appeared that the 0000 were machine stamped and a 1 was hand stamped in front. If each letter block did contain 10K guns, I would suppose that this was the most efficient way to do one with a 6 digit serial with the existing equiptment. TH

[Vlim]

Goertz shows a photograph of a 1937 S/42 in his 'Die Pistole 08', this gun, numbered 10000g was at that time in the hands of Dr. Geoffrey Sturgess.

The marking directive for the P08, published in 1910, also notes:

'Zur Bezeichnung der Aufeinanderfolge von je 10000 Pistolen werden unter der Mitte der Pistolennummer auf dem Schlosskasten und dem Magazin kleine, lateinische Buchstaben (Schreibschrift) von 2 mm Hohe geschlagen, beim zweiten 10000a mit beginnend und so weiter bis zum Jahresschluss'

'In order to mark the order of every 10000 pistols, under the middle of the pistol (serial) number, on the frame and on the magazine small latin letters (script writing), 2mm high will be punched. the second series starting with 10000a and further until the year's end'

So there is actually a pretty good case for the 1 - 10000 numbering opposed to the more logical 1 - 9999.

[Dwight Gruber]

Gerben,

You make an interesting point, and I am mildly embarrassed that I did not think to take that further research step.

The directive as you quote it is ambiguous. The 10,000 pistol series is clear enough; however, the instruction that "The second series starting with 10000a..." is not. As we have come to understand the numbering series, the serial number previous to that number would be 9999(ns), and 10000a would actually be 1a. Unless...and this is a new thought...the numbering instruction was to be taken literally, and the 10000letter was actually intended to be the first in the next letter series, sort of a sn 0. In the example of the S/42 you present, the series would be:

...9999f, 10000g, 1g...etc.

G�¶rtz & Bryans are not much help in understanding this. Their translation of the Notes specifying letter suffixes, reads: "2.) To identify the sequence of any 10,000 pistols, small Latin letters (cursive handwriting type) will be struck with 2mm high punches, the second 10,000 being distinguisned with 'a' and the process continuing to the end of the year..."

As I considered this, I was moved to check Luger production, as reported in Central Powers Pistols and Third Reich Lugers.

DWM military production would have had a total of 76 10000letter serial numbers (8 of them would have been 10000(ns) ) (This is in the 1-10000 conventional understanding model).

Erfurt military production would have had a total of 49 10000letter serial numbers (6 of them 10000(ns) ).

Mauser military production would have had a total of 79 10000letter serial lnumbers (4 of them would be 10000(ns) ).

This would make a total of 204 military Lugers with 10000letter serial numbers, 18 of them without an actuall suffix. Considering the survival rate of these guns the reported rarity of the examples is not surprising, and makes it impossible to differentiate between their being numbering mistakes or actual numbering practice.

--Dwight