US Test AE's - 900 vs. 100

[Pete Ebbink]

In Charlie Kenyon's book, Luger - The Multi-National Pistol; he states in two sections of the book that the US Test Eagles are now thought to have been issued to two, different lots. That is; 900 guns in ~ 6100 to 7100 series range and then another 100 guns in the 7200 series.

These later 100 guns differ in having their two digit serial number stamped on the take down lever versus on the rounded, right side of the take down lever shaft.

Does anyone know where Mr.Kenyon came up with this information ? Is it generally accepted by the collecting community ?

How many lugers in this second series are known/documented ?

I noticed in the early work by Michael Reese on the US Test lugers, that this second lot of 100 guns is not mentioned, but Reese' work may be a bit out-dated...

Thanks for any help...

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

[Johnny Peppers]

Pete,
When the pistols were purchased from DWM, the first shipment of 800 was received on October 26 and the second shipment of 200 was received on October 29. Of the 1000 pistols, 900 were issued to the Cavalry and 100 were reserved to be issued to the Field Artillery and for test purposes. I don't believe that this would indicate that the 100 pistols held for the Field Artillery would necessarily have been a different lot of pistols. There is a list of the Cavalry units which the pistols were issued to, but to date no information listing the serial numbers at issue has been discovered.
The pistols were standard Model 1900 Lugers with the Great Seal of the United States on the chamber, but did not have any proofs or the GERMANY import mark. The serial number range of the test pistols falls into the 6100 to 7100 range, but even the list of the pistols sold to Bannerman contains pistols 7108 and 7147. The practice of numbering the takedown lever on the round started before the test series as I have record of pistol number 6018 being numbered in that manner. Also the practice of numbering the takedown lever on the flat returned prior to reaching serial number 7100. It is also interesting to note that the list of serial numbers sold to Bannerman contains serial numbers 6361 through 7108 consecutively. Apparently attrition wasn't too severe to get this many consecituvely numbered pistols back from the field.

[MauserLugers]

Hi Pete, JP,
I have no information to support that there were two different variations used in the test other than what Kenyon wrote.

I was told that ONLY the test pieces are not marked Germany, and without proofs in this serial range-- approximately the 6000 to 8000 serial range. I do not know this for a fact, but to my knowledge this would make anything in this range a test piece if it is marked correctly. My understanding is that there are pieces in the high 7000 range that are marked Germany, but I personally have never seen one. If this is true, that some are marked Germany, then I would venture that the ones that are not, are test pieces.

I have both variations in my collection. 6689 and 7735, and outside of the last two digit placement on the takedown lever, there is no difference.

I visited with Mr. Kenyon on this a few years ago with my 7735 and he was under the impress that it was a test piece. Also, most of the other collectors think these are test pieces, but since no documentation is available to support them, they usually state them as a possible test piece. The fact that Reese wrote 6100 to 7100 seems to be "concrete", but no one has explained why Bannerman bought Lugers outside of this range, which indicates that 6100 to 7100 probably isn't correct.

I believe Ron Wood had a couple of articles in Auto Mag about this which resulted in a lively debate inwhich some thought they absolutely were not test pieces. Perhaps Ron would share that and his information on these pieces and his thoughts on this subject?

[Imperial Arms]

Hello Peter,

Unless there is documentary evidence that proves there were 100 additional pistols provided for during the 1900 US Test Trails which had the serial number stamped on the left side of the takedown lever, I would not accept this hypothesis. To the best of my knowledge, ALL the correct US Test Trail Lugers had the serial number stamped on the RIGHT side of the takedown lever and were in the serial range 6100-7100.

I did hear of information stating that there were two shipments of pistols, but all the pistols were still in the same serial range. The attempts by some dealers and/or collectors to 'stretch' the correct serial range is a false tactic to include a few pistols that just fall outside the correct serial range. I had a similar encounter in the early 1990's with a US Test Luger being offered by a dealer and I simply returned the pistol for a full refund. If you want your peace of mind, stick to US Test Lugers in the 6100-7100 serial range.

I hope this information is of help to you, and in some cases the facts do not change involving certain model Lugers.

Albert

[MauserLugers]

Hi Albert,
Perhaps you have some idea why Bannerman bought Lugers outside of the 6100 to 7100 serial range?

The last batch -- 6361 thru 7108 -- contains 9 Lugers outside the established range. What does this tell us? How does one explain these and stay pure to the 6100 to 7100 serial range?

[Edward Tinker]

Sorry to jump in here.

This is strictly conjecture on my part, would DWM have replaced parts or guns if requested due to breakage or other problems? Out of a 1,000 guns, there would be a few returns for whatever reason?


No offense, but are there any glaring inaccuracies in Reeseâ??s book?

[Johnny Peppers]

The documentation exists that the pistols were issued in two different lots of 900 and 100 pistols, but this in now way suggests that the pistols were from seperate shipments. The actual dates the pistols were received is only three days apart which would lead one to believe that they probably came from DWM as one large shipment, but there are any number of reasons that the latter shipment of 200 pistols could have been delayed by only three days.
Pistols from as early as 6008 do not have the GERMANY import stamp, and pistols as late as 7976 also do not have the stamp. I have no recorded serial numbers between 6008 and 7976 which does have the GERMANY stamp or any proofs. Also pistols in the early 8000 serial number range start to show up with the takedown lever numbered on the round and continue for a few hundred pistols.
I believe Ron Wood has a list of Model 1900 serial numbers and might shed new light on the discussion.

[Imperial Arms]

I would like to make reference to Johnny Pepper's facts which seem to be very accurate:

"When the pistols were purchased from DWM, the first shipment of 800 was received on October 26 and the second shipment of 200 was received on October 29. Of the 1000 pistols, 900 were issued to the Cavalry and 100 were reserved to be issued to the Field Artillery and for test purposes."

Irrespective of the arrival date into the US, we can safely ascertain the following facts:

1) The US Government purchased and received a TOTAL of 1,000 pistols in two shipments;

2) The pistols were is a consecutive serial range;

3) Most likely ALL these pistols had the same characteristics when they left DWM.

What happened during or after the trails is not very important and we may never know the truth if a few pistols carrying similar features fell outside the reported serial range. So, why consider a trails pistol that falls outside the true serial range or start making 'stories' when there will always be a person who will question the legitimacy of those Lugers which come very close to each side of the serial range?

If a comparison is made to another series of 'American' Lugers, namely the Cartridge Counter Lugers, you will also note that they are in a consecutive serial range and I see no reason why the earlier 1900 Test Lugers would be any different.

Therefore, if a serious collector wants an undisputable 1900 US Test Trails Luger, find one that falls in the 6100-7100 serial range; it has an American eagle on the chamber; it has the serial number stamped on the right side of the takedown lever; no proof marks; and no 'Germany' stamp.

If you want a 'little sugar on top', a 'flaming bomb' proof mark inside the pistol is a little plus to see!!

Albert

[Edward Tinker]

Well thought out Albert.

Common sense (my type [img]biggrin.gif[/img] ) makes me believe that there are others outside the serial range, but your logic is very true and makes perfect sense!

I agree with you, so unless there are gov't documents that turn up with turn in and issue of diff serial numbers, then your logic makes sense.

On the other hand, those serial numbers listed as bought by Bannerman from the gov't should be pretty obvious as test guns also?

[Imperial Arms]

Edward,

Thank you for the kind compliment concerning my common sense. I would like to make a comment regarding your last paragraph:

"On the other hand, those serial numbers listed as bought by Bannerman from the gov't should be pretty obvious as test guns also?"

I do not discount your question, but I am sure many Luger collectors would like to see concrete documentation from Bannerman which can PROVE without a doubt the exact serial numbers of those 1900 American Eagle Lugers just outside the 6100-7100 serial range which were purchased from the US Government that were involved in the same US trials. If documentation can be presented, then it is pretty obvious that there can be exceptions.

However, if Bannerman was simply mentioned as a surplus purchaser because he happened to exist in business at the same time or after the US Trails, then the data (and without serial numbers) is not strong enough and can only be considered as a hypothesis.

I am interested with your question because I have encountered at least two US Lugers (one being 609X) which fell just outside the 'true' serial range and I could never find facts/data or serial numbers from Bannerman to determine if these Lugers are US Trail Lugers. Are you trying to open a can of worms?!!

I call upon the honorable Ron Wood to shed some light on this interesting subject.

Cheers,
Albert

[Johnny Peppers]

I certainly cannot vouch for any record that we might choose to believe or dis-believe, but the accepted number of pistols bought at auction by Francis Bannerman is 780 and the serial numbers are 6167 to 6196, 6282, 6361 to 7108, and 7147. I have seen no evidence to disprove the number of pistols sold or their serial numbers. The only Model 1900 Test Pistols listed by serial number by the Ordnance Department are 6167, 6196, 6282, 6361, 6541, 6601, 6602, 6885 and 7018. Should we only accept those pistols whose serial numbers have concrete documentation, then maybe them those last 9 serial numbers mentioned are the only ones that meet that criteria. There has just not been any concrete proof which has come to light which absolutely proves the serial numbers of the Test Eagles. Supposedly one document from the Bureau of Accounting provides evidence of the serial number range being 6099 to 7098.
If anyone has any evidence one way or the other, the information would be most welcome.

[Ron Wood]

Boy, you guys know how to bring on the heat! First of all, if you expect me to resolve this controversy, it ainâ??t gonna happen. The documentation just isnâ??t there to establish any concrete answer. To summarize the data I have collected, there are 5 recorded serial numbers â??below the rangeâ?� (this does not consider serial number 6009 listed by Scott Meadows since it is so far below), 235 in the â??accepted rangeâ?� of 6100 to 7100, and 27 â??above the rangeâ?�.

First letâ??s look at the only reference that establishes the accepted range. Mike Reese states in his seminal work â??1900 Luger U.S. Test Trialsâ?� that â??Evidence received from the Bureau of Accounting sets the serial number range of the 1,000 test pieces at 6099-7098â?�. That is the only statement I can find that specifically cites a reference for the serial number range. Oddly enough, with all the documentation reproduced by Reese in his book, this vital piece of evidence is not presented. Without being too judgmental (I think), this reduces this â??evidenceâ?�, valid or not, to hearsay.

Next, consider Scott Meadows equally well researched â??U.S. Military Automatic Pistols 1894-1920â?�. He indicates the serial number range is â??6000-7500 (Approximate)â?�. He lists as recorded test pieces 2 â??below rangeâ?� and 7 â??above rangeâ?� examples. Following Albertâ??s line of reasoning, Meadowâ??s out of range pieces are speculation. I have somewhat subscribed to that thinking by discounting number 6009.

Next, we have the serial numbers acquired by Bannerman that includes 9 â??above rangeâ?� examples. Albertâ??s statement â??â?¦if Bannerman was simply mentioned as a surplus purchaser because he happened to exist in business at the same time or after the US Trails, then the data (and without serial numbers) is not strong enough and can only be considered as a hypothesisâ?� is not germane since his purchase of 780 Model 1900 pistols is documented by serial number, therefore the above range numbers cannot be summarily dismissed.

So far we only have Reeseâ??s unsubstantiated range to go by, and there is no evidence that this range contains contiguous serial numbers. If we are to accept his work as absolute, we will have to rationalize a couple of other inconsistencies in his account. In his section on â??Sale, Receipt and Allocationâ?� he lists â??5 â?? Each commanding officer of the 185 troops of cavalryâ?�, which would amount to 925 weapons. Later he gives a detailed listing of the cavalry troops that received the trial Lugers, and lo and behold, they only account for 180 troops! He discounts the missing 25 Lugers by a footnote that states â??Plus 100 pistols to Springfield for exclusive testsâ?�. This 100 would include the 10 pieces to West Point, 65 pieces to artillery units, and the single weapon issued to LTC Marion P. Mans in California, leaving 24 wandering around Springfield somewhere. This is not to debunk Reeseâ??s entire work, but only serves to illustrate that when it comes to Test Trial Lugers, there is always some ambiguity involved. He resorted to some â??guesstimationâ?� to make his numbers come out right. Is there any other part of his records that might be conjecture and therefore suspect?

OK, now letâ??s look at Kenyonâ??s statement â??The first 900 bear serial numbers in the 6,100 to 7,100 range and the second lot bear numbers in the 7200 rangeâ?�. Based on observed serial numbers, there is nothing to indicate that serial numbers from 7,100 up to 7,200 were skipped! He probably should have stated more correctly that the second lot bears numbers above 7,100. I think that Kenyonâ??s statement is based on conjecture derived from observed serial numbers as I know of no documentation to substantiate it.

Is there anything other than the existence of these â??above rangeâ?� examples to further bolster his theory? Perhaps. Hans Tauscher communicated in August of 1901 that the 1000 test pieces would be delivered in two lots of 500 each before the end of September. Yet the weapons were delivered in lots of 800 and 200 near the end of October. This might be due to delays incurred by the shipping means of those times, or it might mean that production commitments necessitated fabrication of the deliverable pieces in a manner that was not originally anticipated and therefore not necessarily consecutively serial numbered.

If we accept Kenyonâ??s postulation, then the 235 numbers in the â??accepted rangeâ?� that I have recorded represent approximately 26% of the supposed 900 in range examples delivered, and the 27 â??above rangeâ?� serials recorded are 27% of the last 100. A remarkably similar survival rate.

Does any of this resolve the issue? NOPE, just stirs the pot some more. Bottom line is that if you want to be absolutely sure you have a legitimate Test Trials Luger you need to heed Albertâ??s admonitionâ?¦ â??Therefore, if a serious collector wants an undisputable 1900 US Test Trails Luger, find one that falls in the 6100-7100 serial rangeâ?�. If, on the other hand, if you believe the preponderance of physical evidence presented by Lugers with Test Trial attributes that exist â??out of rangeâ?�, you may wish to side with Kenyon and be happy with your odd-ball Test Luger.

[John Sabato]

I just wanted to commend and thank each and every one of you in this message thread so far for providing a wealth of known information... some logical speculation and much to think about regarding the U.S. Trials guns... and ALL OF THIS without taking cheap shots at each other... that's what this forum is about. The courteous exchange of information regarding our mutual favorite subject - The Luger Pistol.

If all members could do this, what a much more wonderful place this would be...

Thanks again one and all for this gem of a contribution to the Lugerforum...

Sincere Regards,

John Sabato
Site Moderator

[MauserLugers]

Hi Ron,
Very nice post and very informative.

The fact that 9 Lugers were documented outside the recognized range really has to be considered as important information in my opinion. It literally raises huge questions as to the actual serial range. Most collectors I visit with acknowledge this information, but the 6100 to 7100 serial range has been printed and talked about for such a long time that it has become "FACT", without actually being "FACT".

I for one, feel that the 6100 to 7100 range is not correct and that the serial numbers were not consecutively numbered. I think some will never agree, and until information can actually shed light on which Lugers were actually used in the test, this will continue to be debated. More and more collectors do acknowledge the Bannerman purchase and the fact that these are outside the range. If one looks at this with an open mind, the Bannerman purchased Lugers has to be a very important bit of information, if not the most important, as with only 9 actual serial numbers listed of Test Lugers by the government, then the Bannerman Lugers are the actual hands on examples. One can not dispute them.

The debate continues.

[Edward Tinker]

I re-read parts of Reeses book, and then happened to re-read section on US Trials from John Walters "The Luger Story". He states;

Surviving pistols were recalled to Springfield Armory in 1905 and a year later, the remaining 770 were purchased by Banenrman..

He states the four serial numbers posted by LT Palmer, and then states; Martial & Collectors Arms published in 1971, lists the 770 guns aquired by Bannerman as 6167-96, 6282, 6361-7108 and 7147.

Who wrote this article? Is this rehashed junk info or real documents?

He also states: [quote]Springfield has #'s 6196, 6282, 6885 and 7108, West Point has 7014, Browning museum has 6399 and 7031. (Most if not all of these have been US Army trials guns). <hr></blockquote>

That bit of doubt, I don't like, and are these trials guns because they have the US crest or are they researched?

Further, when they talk about the 50 cartridge counter guns, they took 50 of the guns and exchanged them, that means there might be 50 extra that DWM had at one point or were re-sold by Tauscher?

[Johnny Peppers]

It is a fact that there is no one distinguishing feature that sets a Model 1900 Test Pistol apart from any other Model 1900 AE made at approximately the same time. While some of this is rehashing what I have already posted, it may bear going over again in condensed form. The numbering of the takedown lever on the round started in the early 6000 range. There would have been no reason to have changed the practice of numbering the serial number on the flat just for this run of pistols, and if you examine DWM serial number lists you will see minor changes come and go throughout production. No proofs and no GERMANY import stamp continued into the very late 7000 range. Due to these pistol having no distinguishing features that a cotract pistol would have, there can only be an assumption that the entire shipment of 1000 pistols were numbered consecutively.
Pistol number 6052 was a presentation piece to William F. Reed (Bender pg. 527) who was chief US inspector of the Test Eagles. Pistol number 6054 was presented to G. H. Powell (Kenyon "LTMNP" pg. 50) are both are reported to be identical to the Test Pistols in that they have the TD numbered on the round and have no GERMANY or no proofs.
Unless someone uncovers documentation of the exact serial numbers of the Test Pistols, a part of their documentation will always be part assumption.

[Imperial Arms]

Ron,

We did not expect you to solve this controversy or courteous and healthy debate, but only to help with your views!! Thank you for your wealth of information and knowledge. I wonder what kind of 'soup' we will make in the pot! I shall try to give my opinions or comments to answer a number of questions.

The information provided by Johnny statting that "The only Model 1900 Test Pistols listed by serial number by the Ordnance Department are 6167, 6196, 6282, 6361, 6541, 6601, 6602, 6885 and 7018" shows a excellent defined serial range which likely spans between 6100-7100, and the "Supposedly one document from the Bureau of Accounting provides evidence of the serial number range being 6099 to 7098" gives further strong evidence of the correct serial range. Why do we have to accept information four years after the trials from Bannerman with his purchase of 780 Test Test Trial Lugers which could slighty 'contaminate' the original facts? Who knows whether he obtained an AE 1900 Luger such as #7147 from another source besides the US Government and accidently included it in his records, therefore, 'stretching' the serial range? There could have been replacements or 'mixing' over a span of four years but these pistols would be in no doubt separate to the original shipment of 1,000 pistols. With reference to Johnny's research referring to "Pistol number 6052 was a presentation piece to William F. Reed (Bender pg. 527) who was chief US inspector of the Test Eagles. Pistol number 6054 was presented to G. H. Powell (Kenyon "LTMNP" pg. 50) are both are reported to be identical to the Test Pistols in that they have the TD numbered on the round and have no GERMANY or no proofs", it is quite understandable that these two pistols fall just before serial #6100 because they were 'pre-production' US Test Lugers and first issued as as presentation pistols to the two officers.

With referecne to Ron's statement "Hans Tauscher communicated in August of 1901 that the 1000 test pieces would be delivered in two lots of 500 each before the end of September. Yet the weapons were delivered in lots of 800 and 200 near the end of October.", and accepting the fact that the actual delivery date of the two shipments were three days apart, it is my opinion that DWM was able to easily produce and deliver 1,000 pistols in a consecutive serial range and, interestingly, the two blocks of pistols #6167-96 and #6361-7108 obtained by Bannerman in 1905 can easily support this fact.

When I took a statistics course in university, I learned that there was a method to calculate the margin of error for a data pool to determine if those specimens that fall outside the area should be included/excluded in the data pool. Unfortunately, I forgot how to perform this special calculation but maybe somebody on the Forum can do such a calculation based on the figures provided by Bannerman. It had to do with ranges of separation and surviving specimens which could give valuable percentage results as to whether to include/exclude a piece which falls outside the data pool.

I would like to add another bit of information concerning the US Test Lugers. If my knowledge serves me well (Ron, please help me here), I believe that the US Government returned a quantity of US Trial Lugers before the 1902 Cartridge Counter Lugers were delivered in 1903. If this is the case, I wonder what could have been the serial numbers of these pistols and why the US Government did not accurately report or account this information? I apologize if I have made an error regarding this part of information.

Well fellows, who said this interesting debate is finished? This specific topic should be given a gold medal and I believe that Ron never expected to write a marathon response on this forum!

Cheers,
Albert

[Ron Wood]

Numbering of the takedown lever on the round end started very early on. I have a 1900 American Eagle serial number 2136 that is so numbered and have owned and seen others of the same vintage that were also marked the same way. The singular external characteristic of the Test Eagles is the lack of the GERMANY export stamp required on commercial weapons.

With respect to the validity of the "Martial and Collectors Arms" article, I would love to get my hands on a copy to determine the attribution of the serial numbers given. It has been presumed that they came from a bill of sale or other transaction record, but lacking any further information it remains just that, a presumption.
The precision and specifics of the numbers listed is not de facto authentication, however, for the present the data is no more specious than Reese's assertion of the 6099-7098 range.

The Springfield, West Point and Browning Museum trials gun identifications are no doubt based on the characteristics that Johnny stated.

I have also wondered about the disposition of the "missing 50" turned in test Lugers. It would seem silly to return US crested guns to Germany, so Ed's observation that they may have been transfered to Tauscher for re-sale appears to be an astute bet.

[Ron Wood]

I am leaving town now for a few days (finally going to get to go to the Las Vegas show!). When I return I would be pleased to post my list of existing Test Trials Lugers on the forum if John D. or John S. could tell me how to do it in a format that I could update if required (it currently is a Microsoft Word table). Take care folks, see ya later. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

[John Sabato]

Ron... an easy answer.

Create an album for the information in the Member Gallery.

Create the table in excel and then highlight the table and paste it as a new image in a graphics progam like Paint Shop Pro.

Post the resulting table as a graphic in the album. If the info should change, create a new graphic table and post it and then delete the old table graphic from the album.

Have a safe trip.