Opinions sought - First Luger - P08 Erfurt

hollowpoint67 · 02-19-2017, 04:47 PM

I'll admit mainly a lurker when it comes to Lugers.

I've been hoping to pick up a shooter S/42 or Third Reich era, however this one recently popped up local to me. Seller is asking $1150 and describes it as "Appears to be numbers matching in all the places you expect"

My main area of concern was the "Erfurt" stamping looking a bit buffed? Which could either indicate a rebluing or a renumbering? As previously stated I am new to Lugers but know that this sort of thing happens/happened frequently with German arms due to their post war allure.

General consensus on if its a buy or if I should hold my horses and get a Mauser later down the line when one pops up.

DonVoigt · 02-19-2017, 05:23 PM

I'd pass for sure,
it may have been re-blued as you suspected the toggle stamping is weak but hard to say for sure, but the front of the frame has been "beat" for some reason.
It appears to be a matching Erfurt luger, nothing special and not worth the price of an $800 shooter due to the damage, JMHO.

Eugen · 02-19-2017, 06:54 PM

I don't have much experience making valuations, but that never stops me from expressing my opinion. I think the price is high for that particular one. Buy it for less or wait for the Mauser you dream about.

DavidJayUden · 02-19-2017, 06:55 PM

The toggle crown certainly does look faint, but the break in the line of the crown on the rear edge is common, so maybe the stamp was just getting worn?
The numbers on the frame do look suspect and may well be a deal breaker as Don mentioned. Maybe a restamp? Some more close-ups MAY help.
Otherwise it looks like a run-of-the-mill Erfurt, functional but certainly not eye-candy.
dju

George Anderson · 02-19-2017, 08:48 PM

This pistol started out as a 19154 Artillery model and was reworked during the Weimar era to a four inch.

sheepherder · 02-20-2017, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

The numbers on the frame do look suspect and may well be a deal breaker...

The whole front of the gripframe looks beaten & filed at an odd angle; the suffix is usually not seen that high; the takedown lever has been filed unevenly and 'chamfered'...

Appearances can be deceiving, maybe this is a 'righteous' 1914 Erfurt, but there are better looking examples shown on this site...

I would smile, say "Nice Luger!", and walk away...

RShaw · 02-20-2017, 10:24 AM

I do not present myself as an expert, but as more of ab observer trying to learn. Before reading the comments I noticed the following:
3rd photo of toggle just after the two photos of right and left sides:
The 83 between toggle knobs and Erfurt logo is very deep whereas the Erfurt logo is very worn. Surprising, unless the 83 is projected from wear by the higher sitting toggle knobs.
Just forward of the toggle joint, the edge appears badly worn / abused- it's not a straight line.
9th photo of the frame, just after the exposed trigger SN:
Frame appears damaged. Why is the right side (top of photo) longer than the left side of the frame (bottom)

This gun looks "well used" which is a nice way of saying "beat up).
I would hesitate to buy this gun for any purpose. Seller should verify that it's all matching instead of saying "in all the places you would expect."

George: would like to learn from you- what indicates to you that this is a 1914 artillery reworked to a 4 inch? and during the Weimar era? Trying to learn, not at all questioning your conclusion. Thanks.

ithacaartist · 02-20-2017, 12:18 PM

Erfurt only made LP.08s during 1914. The receiver notch for the rear sight leaf was created for them, and If I'm not mistaken, 1914 P.08s were not notched. After 1914, all Erfurts were notched, though none became LP.08s.

Norme · 02-20-2017, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

Erfurt only made LP.08s during 1914. The receiver notch for the rear sight leaf was created for them, and If I'm not mistaken, 1914 P.08s were not notched. After 1914, all Erfurts were notched, though none became LP.08s.

Hi David,
After 1914 most Erfurts had notched receivers, but certainly not all.
Regards, Norm

wlyon · 02-20-2017, 01:35 PM

I believe the date for notched receivers was late 1916 production. After that most if not all were notched. Bill

DavidJayUden · 02-20-2017, 01:57 PM

Norme's example certainly does have a strong crown toggle stamp.
dju

RShaw · 02-20-2017, 02:05 PM

Ah thank you. One can tell a lot if such details are known

Am looking at Norme's photo of the receiver and toggle, and comparing it to the 3rd photo of hollowpoint67's first post. Big difference! In the latter, very worn "Erfurt" as opposed to a very sharp "83" versus evenly worn "Erfurt" and Serial #. Also a very crooked line in the joint just behind the extractor versus straight and at right angles.

hollowpoint67 · 02-20-2017, 03:00 PM

Hi all, thank you for the detailed responses. I don't think the seller would be too inclined to let it go for shooter grade pricing.

I have elected to hold off and wait in the meantime ill continue looking at Luger porn.

RShaw · 02-20-2017, 03:34 PM

Sounds good.
Your text: "Seller is asking $1150 and describes it as "Appears to be numbers matching in all the places you expect.'" put me off to be honest. My immediate response to the seller would be " IS it matching or not?? You should strip the gun and find out for yourself before selling..."

If you walk away you have lost nothing. The right one will come along. For myself, a shooter should be in good shape without a lot of visible damge ie. pitting, dents, rust, etc. Of course any shooter should be sound and fully functional.

Anyway, I look forward to the next installment in your search for a good shooter

02-19-2017, 04:47 PM	#1
hollowpoint67 New User Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 2 Thanks: 1 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Opinions sought - First Luger - P08 Erfurt I'll admit mainly a lurker when it comes to Lugers. I've been hoping to pick up a shooter S/42 or Third Reich era, however this one recently popped up local to me. Seller is asking $1150 and describes it as "Appears to be numbers matching in all the places you expect" My main area of concern was the "Erfurt" stamping looking a bit buffed? Which could either indicate a rebluing or a renumbering? As previously stated I am new to Lugers but know that this sort of thing happens/happened frequently with German arms due to their post war allure. General consensus on if its a buy or if I should hold my horses and get a Mauser later down the line when one pops up.

02-19-2017, 05:23 PM	#2
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,440 Thanked 4,348 Times in 2,038 Posts	I'd pass for sure, it may have been re-blued as you suspected the toggle stamping is weak but hard to say for sure, but the front of the frame has been "beat" for some reason. It appears to be a matching Erfurt luger, nothing special and not worth the price of an $800 shooter due to the damage, JMHO. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

02-19-2017, 06:54 PM	#3
Eugen User Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Newburgh,IN Posts: 767 Thanks: 370 Thanked 601 Times in 319 Posts	I don't have much experience making valuations, but that never stops me from expressing my opinion. I think the price is high for that particular one. Buy it for less or wait for the Mauser you dream about. __________________ “God created war so that Americans would learn geography.” ― Mark Twain

02-20-2017, 12:18 PM	#8
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,284 Thanks: 7,013 Thanked 2,478 Times in 1,320 Posts	Erfurt only made LP.08s during 1914. The receiver notch for the rear sight leaf was created for them, and If I'm not mistaken, 1914 P.08s were not notched. After 1914, all Erfurts were notched, though none became LP.08s. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

02-20-2017, 01:35 PM	#10
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,617 Thanks: 3,141 Thanked 2,524 Times in 941 Posts	I believe the date for notched receivers was late 1916 production. After that most if not all were notched. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

02-19-2017, 06:55 PM	#4
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	The toggle crown certainly does look faint, but the break in the line of the crown on the rear edge is common, so maybe the stamp was just getting worn? The numbers on the frame do look suspect and may well be a deal breaker as Don mentioned. Maybe a restamp? Some more close-ups MAY help. Otherwise it looks like a run-of-the-mill Erfurt, functional but certainly not eye-candy. dju

02-19-2017, 08:48 PM	#5
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	This pistol started out as a 19154 Artillery model and was reworked during the Weimar era to a four inch.

02-20-2017, 10:24 AM	#7
RShaw User Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Venlo, the Netherlands Posts: 350 Thanks: 160 Thanked 170 Times in 90 Posts	I do not present myself as an expert, but as more of ab observer trying to learn. Before reading the comments I noticed the following: 3rd photo of toggle just after the two photos of right and left sides: The 83 between toggle knobs and Erfurt logo is very deep whereas the Erfurt logo is very worn. Surprising, unless the 83 is projected from wear by the higher sitting toggle knobs. Just forward of the toggle joint, the edge appears badly worn / abused- it's not a straight line. 9th photo of the frame, just after the exposed trigger SN: Frame appears damaged. Why is the right side (top of photo) longer than the left side of the frame (bottom) This gun looks "well used" which is a nice way of saying "beat up). I would hesitate to buy this gun for any purpose. Seller should verify that it's all matching instead of saying "in all the places you would expect." George: would like to learn from you- what indicates to you that this is a 1914 artillery reworked to a 4 inch? and during the Weimar era? Trying to learn, not at all questioning your conclusion. Thanks.

02-20-2017, 01:57 PM	#11
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Norme's example certainly does have a strong crown toggle stamp. dju

02-20-2017, 02:05 PM	#12
RShaw User Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Venlo, the Netherlands Posts: 350 Thanks: 160 Thanked 170 Times in 90 Posts	Ah thank you. One can tell a lot if such details are known Am looking at Norme's photo of the receiver and toggle, and comparing it to the 3rd photo of hollowpoint67's first post. Big difference! In the latter, very worn "Erfurt" as opposed to a very sharp "83" versus evenly worn "Erfurt" and Serial #. Also a very crooked line in the joint just behind the extractor versus straight and at right angles.

02-20-2017, 03:00 PM	#13
hollowpoint67 New User Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 2 Thanks: 1 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Hi all, thank you for the detailed responses. I don't think the seller would be too inclined to let it go for shooter grade pricing. I have elected to hold off and wait in the meantime ill continue looking at Luger porn.

02-20-2017, 03:34 PM	#14
RShaw User Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Venlo, the Netherlands Posts: 350 Thanks: 160 Thanked 170 Times in 90 Posts	Sounds good. Your text: "Seller is asking $1150 and describes it as "Appears to be numbers matching in all the places you expect.'" put me off to be honest. My immediate response to the seller would be " IS it matching or not?? You should strip the gun and find out for yourself before selling..." If you walk away you have lost nothing. The right one will come along. For myself, a shooter should be in good shape without a lot of visible damge ie. pitting, dents, rust, etc. Of course any shooter should be sound and fully functional. Anyway, I look forward to the next installment in your search for a good shooter