1912 Erfurt on Gunbroker

wayne8661 · 01-29-2017, 08:41 AM

Wouldn't the numbers on the barrel have halos on this year also does the barrel witness mark look a little off

wayne8661 · 01-29-2017, 08:45 AM

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/615732338

Here is the link

sheepherder · 01-29-2017, 09:34 AM

Wow! 141 pictures!

You have to be really anal to post 141 pictures!

IOW, a Luger Collector!

(You have to be really anal to take 141 pictures!)

I get the idea that the seller expects a high price for this 1912 Erfurt...Is that realistic???

wayne8661 · 01-29-2017, 10:06 AM

I don't think the price right now is out of line.

Norme · 01-29-2017, 01:37 PM

Hi Wayne,
I believe that no halos on a 1912 Erfurt is correct, at least the ones I've examined haven't had them.
The exact purpose of the witness mark is somewhat controversial, my belief is that it indicates any clockwise rotation of the barrel caused by repeated firing, the small shift shown in the photo is pretty typical of a gun that has seen a lot of use.
As to the price, this Erfurt has an interesting and desirable unit mark and, in my opinion the price is not out of line so far.
Regards, Norm

wayne8661 · 01-29-2017, 01:41 PM

Yeah I think I am going to go after this one

spartacus38 · 01-29-2017, 02:47 PM

I would make sure you have an inspection period.
It is possible the barrel may have been re blued.
Bob

RShaw · 01-29-2017, 02:48 PM

I know I am not a Luger expert, but wouldn't the absence of halo's indicate that the stamps in question were made after leaving the factory, or in any case, not using the original factory procedures? Presence of halo's would indicate compression of the metal at the edges of the stamp at the instant of high impact stamping? On the other hand, there seems to be no evidence of grinding down or refinishing from these photos posted. Looks like a nice gun!!

spartacus38 · 01-29-2017, 02:58 PM

IMO the condition of the gun does not match the condition of the barrel..There is no wear on the muzzle barrel band.
Bob

RShaw · 01-29-2017, 03:45 PM

Mmmmm.... Is there any other way to tell whether the barrel has been replaced? Have to be really careful with these expensive guns... I"m trying to learn all I can- there's so much information on this forum.... remarkable!

sheepherder · 01-29-2017, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RShaw

Mmmmm.... Is there any other way to tell whether the barrel has been replaced?

Would it matter? The unit marking shows that it visited an armory at least once; having the barrel replaced and with stamps consistent with such a visit would seem to be an indication of an 'official' upgrade...

The land diameter is rather rare too..."8,82"...If it was not 'real', it would likely have the more common '8,83' I would think...

It also has a nice screaming chicken on the barrel...That all makes this moron think it is genuine Erfurt, even if a replacement...

RShaw · 01-29-2017, 04:18 PM

Ahh OK.
But would even an "official upgrade" detract from the "general collector value?"

I guess at the end of the day, a collector piece is worth what a buyer is willing to pay at any given instant. Maybe I / we.. think too much in terns of "$ value" and not enough in terns of "I like this gun!! I'll buy it for $XX !" IF the buyer is happy, and IF has purchased the gun with an accurate knowledge of what has been paid for, then done is done.

2 big IF's here. Nobondy likes to pay a collector's price for a mismatched abused parts gun. Please note, I am NOT saying the gun described here is mismatched and abused! Looks nice to me!

That's one of the advantages of te helpful atmosphere on this forum... a wealth of experts and their willingness to share.

wayne8661 · 01-29-2017, 04:20 PM

Not only that but the hold open was added so it definately saw some Tim in an armory!

RShaw · 01-29-2017, 04:23 PM

Hope you don't mind, but how do you tell that the hold open has been added? I do not see that myself. Not because I disagree but because I am on a steep learning curve. Beautiful gun

wayne8661 · 01-29-2017, 04:25 PM

There is a visable pin installed on the right side with an Erfurt proof. This was retrofitted after the pistol was made.

sheepherder · 01-29-2017, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RShaw

Hope you don't mind, but how do you tell that the hold open has been added?

The retaining pin shows from the outside...

...But if you delve deep enough into the 141 pics, there are several closeups of the hold-open...

RShaw · 01-29-2017, 04:28 PM

You have a sharp eye. Thank you!!

sheepherder · 01-29-2017, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RShaw

You have a sharp eye.

I don't know about rhuff, but I am highly suspicious, cynical, and pessimistic about everything in life...

But this looks good to me [admittedly I'm an idiot when it comes to Lugers] : and I think that armory upgrades and unit marks add to the provenance of this Luger...

It's at $1675 right now with a deadline of 7:30pm tonight...I think it will go in the $2500 range...At least I would think that is the seller's hope...(It's not mine btw)...

wayne8661 · 01-29-2017, 04:43 PM

Agreed!!!!

DavidJayUden · 01-29-2017, 07:45 PM

Congratulations to Wayne8661! Let us know how she looks in the flesh.
dju

01-29-2017, 08:41 AM	#1
wayne8661 User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Kennett Square Pennsylvania Posts: 591 Thanks: 15 Thanked 334 Times in 104 Posts	1912 Erfurt on Gunbroker Wouldn't the numbers on the barrel have halos on this year also does the barrel witness mark look a little off Attached Thumbnails

01-29-2017, 09:34 AM	#3
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	Wow! 141 pictures! You have to be really anal to post 141 pictures! IOW, a Luger Collector! (You have to be really anal to *take* 141 pictures!) I get the idea that the seller expects a high price for this 1912 Erfurt...Is that realistic??? __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

01-29-2017, 02:48 PM	#8
RShaw User Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Venlo, the Netherlands Posts: 350 Thanks: 160 Thanked 170 Times in 90 Posts	I know I am not a Luger expert, but wouldn't the absence of halo's indicate that the stamps in question were made after leaving the factory, or in any case, not using the original factory procedures? Presence of halo's would indicate compression of the metal at the edges of the stamp at the instant of high impact stamping? On the other hand, there seems to be no evidence of grinding down or refinishing from these photos posted. Looks like a nice gun!! __________________ Enjoying any firearm is like staying happily married- take her out on a regular basis, treat her with respect and pay attention to proper maintenance. Looking for magazine no. 7097 Venlo, the Netherlands- RShaw

01-29-2017, 04:18 PM	#12
RShaw User Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Venlo, the Netherlands Posts: 350 Thanks: 160 Thanked 170 Times in 90 Posts	Ahh OK. But would even an "official upgrade" detract from the "general collector value?" I guess at the end of the day, a collector piece is worth what a buyer is willing to pay at any given instant. Maybe I / we.. think too much in terns of "$ value" and not enough in terns of "I like this gun!! I'll buy it for $XX !" IF the buyer is happy, and IF has purchased the gun with an accurate knowledge of what has been paid for, then done is done. 2 big IF's here. Nobondy likes to pay a collector's price for a mismatched abused parts gun. Please note, I am NOT saying the gun described here is mismatched and abused! Looks nice to me! That's one of the advantages of te helpful atmosphere on this forum... a wealth of experts and their willingness to share. __________________ Enjoying any firearm is like staying happily married- take her out on a regular basis, treat her with respect and pay attention to proper maintenance. Looking for magazine no. 7097 Venlo, the Netherlands- RShaw

01-29-2017, 04:28 PM	#17
RShaw User Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Venlo, the Netherlands Posts: 350 Thanks: 160 Thanked 170 Times in 90 Posts	You have a sharp eye. Thank you!! __________________ Enjoying any firearm is like staying happily married- take her out on a regular basis, treat her with respect and pay attention to proper maintenance. Looking for magazine no. 7097 Venlo, the Netherlands- RShaw

01-29-2017, 08:45 AM	#2
wayne8661 User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Kennett Square Pennsylvania Posts: 591 Thanks: 15 Thanked 334 Times in 104 Posts	http://www.gunbroker.com/item/615732338 Here is the link

01-29-2017, 10:06 AM	#4
wayne8661 User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Kennett Square Pennsylvania Posts: 591 Thanks: 15 Thanked 334 Times in 104 Posts	I don't think the price right now is out of line.

01-29-2017, 01:37 PM	#5
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Wayne, I believe that no halos on a 1912 Erfurt is correct, at least the ones I've examined haven't had them. The exact purpose of the witness mark is somewhat controversial, my belief is that it indicates any clockwise rotation of the barrel caused by repeated firing, the small shift shown in the photo is pretty typical of a gun that has seen a lot of use. As to the price, this Erfurt has an interesting and desirable unit mark and, in my opinion the price is not out of line so far. Regards, Norm

01-29-2017, 01:41 PM	#6
wayne8661 User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Kennett Square Pennsylvania Posts: 591 Thanks: 15 Thanked 334 Times in 104 Posts	Yeah I think I am going to go after this one

01-29-2017, 02:47 PM	#7
spartacus38 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Lake Tahoe,CA. Posts: 695 Thanks: 0 Thanked 70 Times in 56 Posts	I would make sure you have an inspection period. It is possible the barrel may have been re blued. Bob

01-29-2017, 02:58 PM	#9
spartacus38 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Lake Tahoe,CA. Posts: 695 Thanks: 0 Thanked 70 Times in 56 Posts	IMO the condition of the gun does not match the condition of the barrel..There is no wear on the muzzle barrel band. Bob

01-29-2017, 03:45 PM	#10
RShaw User Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Venlo, the Netherlands Posts: 350 Thanks: 160 Thanked 170 Times in 90 Posts	Mmmmm.... Is there any other way to tell whether the barrel has been replaced? Have to be really careful with these expensive guns... I"m trying to learn all I can- there's so much information on this forum.... remarkable!

01-29-2017, 04:20 PM	#13
wayne8661 User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Kennett Square Pennsylvania Posts: 591 Thanks: 15 Thanked 334 Times in 104 Posts	Not only that but the hold open was added so it definately saw some Tim in an armory!

01-29-2017, 04:23 PM	#14
RShaw User Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Venlo, the Netherlands Posts: 350 Thanks: 160 Thanked 170 Times in 90 Posts	Hope you don't mind, but how do you tell that the hold open has been added? I do not see that myself. Not because I disagree but because I am on a steep learning curve. Beautiful gun

01-29-2017, 04:25 PM	#15
wayne8661 User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Kennett Square Pennsylvania Posts: 591 Thanks: 15 Thanked 334 Times in 104 Posts	There is a visable pin installed on the right side with an Erfurt proof. This was retrofitted after the pistol was made.

01-29-2017, 04:43 PM	#19
wayne8661 User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Kennett Square Pennsylvania Posts: 591 Thanks: 15 Thanked 334 Times in 104 Posts	Agreed!!!! Last edited by wayne8661; 01-29-2017 at 04:44 PM. Reason: Spelling

01-29-2017, 07:45 PM	#20
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Congratulations to Wayne8661! Let us know how she looks in the flesh. dju