Recent acquisition

Navy · 10-13-2003, 06:19 PM

All,

Just acquired a lovely 1938 S/42 KM piece. It is Nordsee marked on front grip strap, and a high 90s% gun. It was very, very stiff opening up for examination and appears to have been fired little if any. The disassembly revealed generous quantities of old grease that was beginning to crystalize and contained some fiberous material. Sniff test tells me it is OLD.

Will send pix to someone who understands the mumbo-techno-jumbo

required to post them here.

Tom A

Ron Wood · 10-13-2003, 06:39 PM

Send 'em to me Tom, I've got mumbo-jumbo coming out my ears, and I make up for the lack of techno through guile and subterfuge.

Roadkill · 10-13-2003, 06:40 PM

Congratulations! Read somewhere that the fiberous material was a type grease used on ships/summarines. Check your pms.

rk

Navy · 10-13-2003, 07:18 PM

All
Sent pix to Ed Tinker, who has helped out in the past.

to Ron Wood, pls send me info on guile and subterfuge techniques..I need all the help with this stuff that I can get.

Tom A

Ron Wood · 10-13-2003, 07:51 PM

Those techniques are only acquired by stacking up birthdays...to wit: "old age and subterfuge will overcome youth and skill on most occasions".

Navy · 10-13-2003, 08:35 PM

Ron,
AT 57 of them b-days, pls tell me how many more I must endure in ignorance before I can post a pic on this thing without help...

Tom A

pics posted by a youngster (42 until later this week)

Ron Wood · 10-13-2003, 08:52 PM

Well youngster, you are going to need a couple more than a half dozen to catch up with me. However, I suspect you could post pics right now if you set your mind to it.

Pete Ebbink · 10-13-2003, 09:52 PM

Hello Tom,

Do you know how the Navy markings were typically applied by the Germans ?

I cannot tell for sure from the resolution of the photo of the grip strap, but each number seems to have little "swirls" along each stroke of the numbers.

This reminds me more of the swirling pattern one sees from a pantograph techinque. Not sure if the "swirls" are really there or not...it only appears to show swirls in the photo.

If struck with a number die, I would not think a swirl pattern would be present...

Just trying to understand how the Navy marked their 4" guns...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Ron Wood · 10-13-2003, 10:48 PM

Weimar and early Nazi navy property marks were pantographed. That is why you have to be very careful with these...Waffenfabrik USA is not reluctant to use a pantograph. Don't think you need to worry about the one Tom just found.

Pete Ebbink · 10-13-2003, 11:07 PM

Thanks, Ron...

I hope I did not appear to be doubting Tom's ability to make a righteous buy. If my posting conveyed that, please let me apologize...!

Just trying to confirm what I thought I saw in the photo and to find out when pantographs were used.

Any tips as to how to spot legitimate, historical pantographing from modern-day Waffenfabrik USA pantographing...??? Imagine legitmate, period-correct pantographed numbers/letters would have a fair amount of oxidation & rust in the carved lines...(???) since the metal is left in-the-white after the property marks were applied...(???)

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Ron Wood · 10-13-2003, 11:37 PM

'Fraid you are going to have to ask the experts on that one. Weimar and Nazi are too "new" for me to know much about the details.

Navy · 10-14-2003, 09:20 AM

Pete,

You are quite right. There should be some oxidation and discoloration present. There is some light discoloration on this piece but it does not show up well in this macro photo due to some distortion. I will send you another one to your regular email so that you can see what I am talking about.

Tom A

Frank H · 10-14-2003, 04:30 PM

Tom
Nice find! You sure come up with some beautiful stuff! Care to share your secrets on how you find these gems? You talk about old grease and oxidation-when we acquire a new peice - is it best to leave it alone, (old grease and oxidation), or clean it up?

Navy · 10-14-2003, 07:30 PM

Hi Frank,

I leave it alone.
My standard practice is to do a thorough cleaning on the bore and toggle train path and then wipe the exterior surfaces with Renaissance Wax-yes, I wax the metal.
I feel that the remaining oxidation and old cruddy grease establish the bona fides for the piece. The RenWax preserves the metal better than oil, preserves but "arrests" the oxidation to stabalize the piece. It also looks better than oil, IMHO.

As for how I find these things, well, I spend an inordinate amount of time looking, probably 2-3 hours per day on the 'net and/or telephone. There aren't any short cuts that I know about.

Speakin' of finding others, I have another 1938 KM S/42 rig due in tomorrow, only it is property marked on rear strap.

Now, if I could figger out how to post pix on this thing, I'd be much, much happier...and could post pix of new arrivals without having to bug Ed Tinker or the capo tutti capo, mr Sabato.

Tom A
Wastin' away in Huntsgaritaville

Heinz · 10-14-2003, 08:01 PM

Pete, The pantograph was used to remark the gesichert in several of the altered 1904/06 navy lugers I have information on. So the pantograph seems to have seen Navy use around 1908 or so. I cannot yet say if this marking was done in the dockyards or possibly aboard larger naval vessels.

PS If we don't get Armstrong out of Huntsville soon the South will be disarmed.

Pete Ebbink · 10-14-2003, 09:01 PM

Thanks Ron, Tom, and Heinz !

Look forward to receiving your file attachment in the e-mail, Tom...I appreciate your time in doing so !

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Navy · 10-14-2003, 10:16 PM

Heinz,
I am a southern boy, Georgia cracker. I will always leave a stash for my fellow Confed, er...uh...countrymen.

Tom A.
Who is a direct descendent of Alexander H. Stephens.

MauserLugers · 10-19-2003, 12:03 PM

Hi,
Have what I consider an interesting story about a 1940/42 Navy Luger. I purchased this gun from a gentleman in NJ about 5 years ago and the serial number was 9967b with a property number of 4449N. It came with a 1940 Navy holster and two Navy 122 type magazines. The one magazine had the wrong serial number of the gun on it, but had the correct property number of 4449N. The other had a different serial number and different property number. The magazine with the 4449N looked correct but though someone had messed with it and put the correct property number on it. About 6 months later I happened to be looking on e-bay and saw a magazine for sale for Alberta, Canada that was serial numberd 9967b with the property number 4449Nx on it. Yep, that was my magazine and I bought it. When I received the magazine I compared the two 4449N's and found that they were exactly the same as the middle 44's touched and they both had the same spacing between numbers. The same die was used to put them both on. I took these magazines to the Kansas City show and showed them to most of the dealers and collectors that I could, and after they looked at them all were in agreement that they were original and correct. This seems to suggest that the Navy was only interested in the Navy property number and in this case the serial numbers of the magazines were mixed up, but the property number was still issued on a non matching magazine since it really didn't matter to the Navy about the magazine serial number. We began to wonder how common this was since matching Navy magazines are hard to find. Any comments? -- Bill

10-13-2003, 06:19 PM	#1
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Recent acquisition All, Just acquired a lovely 1938 S/42 KM piece. It is Nordsee marked on front grip strap, and a high 90s% gun. It was very, very stiff opening up for examination and appears to have been fired little if any. The disassembly revealed generous quantities of old grease that was beginning to crystalize and contained some fiberous material. Sniff test tells me it is OLD. Will send pix to someone who understands the mumbo-techno-jumbo required to post them here. Tom A

10-13-2003, 06:39 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,096 Times in 1,676 Posts	Send 'em to me Tom, I've got mumbo-jumbo coming out my ears, and I make up for the lack of techno through guile and subterfuge. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-13-2003, 07:51 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,096 Times in 1,676 Posts	Those techniques are only acquired by stacking up birthdays...to wit: "old age and subterfuge will overcome youth and skill on most occasions". __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-13-2003, 08:52 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,096 Times in 1,676 Posts	Well youngster, you are going to need a couple more than a half dozen to catch up with me. However, I suspect you could post pics right now if you set your mind to it. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-13-2003, 10:48 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,096 Times in 1,676 Posts	Weimar and early Nazi navy property marks were pantographed. That is why you have to be very careful with these...Waffenfabrik USA is not reluctant to use a pantograph. Don't think you need to worry about the one Tom just found. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-13-2003, 06:40 PM	#3
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Congratulations! Read somewhere that the fiberous material was a type grease used on ships/summarines. Check your pms. rk

10-13-2003, 07:18 PM	#4
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	All Sent pix to Ed Tinker, who has helped out in the past. to Ron Wood, pls send me info on guile and subterfuge techniques..I need all the help with this stuff that I can get. Tom A

10-13-2003, 08:35 PM	#6
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Ron, AT 57 of them b-days, pls tell me how many more I must endure in ignorance before I can post a pic on this thing without help... Tom A pics posted by a youngster (42 until later this week) <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Chamber.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Chamber.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Gripstrapmark.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Gripstrapmark.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/LeftSideTom.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/LeftSideTom.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Noteoldgreaseinsideplate.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Noteoldgreaseinsideplate.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/OldGreaseinsidetoggle.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/OldGreaseinsidetoggle.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

10-13-2003, 09:52 PM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Tom, Do you know how the Navy markings were typically applied by the Germans ? I cannot tell for sure from the resolution of the photo of the grip strap, but each number seems to have little "swirls" along each stroke of the numbers. This reminds me more of the swirling pattern one sees from a pantograph techinque. Not sure if the "swirls" are really there or not...it only appears to show swirls in the photo. If struck with a number die, I would not think a swirl pattern would be present... Just trying to understand how the Navy marked their 4" guns... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-13-2003, 11:07 PM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks, Ron... I hope I did not appear to be doubting Tom's ability to make a righteous buy. If my posting conveyed that, please let me apologize...! Just trying to confirm what I thought I saw in the photo and to find out when pantographs were used. Any tips as to how to spot legitimate, historical pantographing from modern-day Waffenfabrik USA pantographing...??? Imagine legitmate, period-correct pantographed numbers/letters would have a fair amount of oxidation & rust in the carved lines...(???) since the metal is left in-the-white after the property marks were applied...(???) Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-13-2003, 11:37 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,096 Times in 1,676 Posts	'Fraid you are going to have to ask the experts on that one. Weimar and Nazi are too "new" for me to know much about the details. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-14-2003, 09:20 AM	#12
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Pete, You are quite right. There should be some oxidation and discoloration present. There is some light discoloration on this piece but it does not show up well in this macro photo due to some distortion. I will send you another one to your regular email so that you can see what I am talking about. Tom A

10-14-2003, 04:30 PM	#13
Frank H User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: N. FL Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tom Nice find! You sure come up with some beautiful stuff! Care to share your secrets on how you find these gems? You talk about old grease and oxidation-when we acquire a new peice - is it best to leave it alone, (old grease and oxidation), or clean it up?

10-14-2003, 07:30 PM	#14
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Hi Frank, I leave it alone. My standard practice is to do a thorough cleaning on the bore and toggle train path and then wipe the exterior surfaces with Renaissance Wax-yes, I wax the metal. I feel that the remaining oxidation and old cruddy grease establish the bona fides for the piece. The RenWax preserves the metal better than oil, preserves but "arrests" the oxidation to stabalize the piece. It also looks better than oil, IMHO. As for how I find these things, well, I spend an inordinate amount of time looking, probably 2-3 hours per day on the 'net and/or telephone. There aren't any short cuts that I know about. Speakin' of finding others, I have another 1938 KM S/42 rig due in tomorrow, only it is property marked on rear strap. Now, if I could figger out how to post pix on this thing, I'd be much, much happier...and could post pix of new arrivals without having to bug Ed Tinker or the capo tutti capo, mr Sabato. Tom A Wastin' away in Huntsgaritaville

10-14-2003, 08:01 PM	#15
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Pete, The pantograph was used to remark the gesichert in several of the altered 1904/06 navy lugers I have information on. So the pantograph seems to have seen Navy use around 1908 or so. I cannot yet say if this marking was done in the dockyards or possibly aboard larger naval vessels. PS If we don't get Armstrong out of Huntsville soon the South will be disarmed.

10-14-2003, 09:01 PM	#16
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks Ron, Tom, and Heinz ! Look forward to receiving your file attachment in the e-mail, Tom...I appreciate your time in doing so ! Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-14-2003, 10:16 PM	#17
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Heinz, I am a southern boy, Georgia cracker. I will always leave a stash for my fellow Confed, er...uh...countrymen. Tom A. Who is a direct descendent of Alexander H. Stephens.

10-19-2003, 12:03 PM	#18
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi, Have what I consider an interesting story about a 1940/42 Navy Luger. I purchased this gun from a gentleman in NJ about 5 years ago and the serial number was 9967b with a property number of 4449N. It came with a 1940 Navy holster and two Navy 122 type magazines. The one magazine had the wrong serial number of the gun on it, but had the correct property number of 4449N. The other had a different serial number and different property number. The magazine with the 4449N looked correct but though someone had messed with it and put the correct property number on it. About 6 months later I happened to be looking on e-bay and saw a magazine for sale for Alberta, Canada that was serial numberd 9967b with the property number 4449Nx on it. Yep, that was my magazine and I bought it. When I received the magazine I compared the two 4449N's and found that they were exactly the same as the middle 44's touched and they both had the same spacing between numbers. The same die was used to put them both on. I took these magazines to the Kansas City show and showed them to most of the dealers and collectors that I could, and after they looked at them all were in agreement that they were original and correct. This seems to suggest that the Navy was only interested in the Navy property number and in this case the serial numbers of the magazines were mixed up, but the property number was still issued on a non matching magazine since it really didn't matter to the Navy about the magazine serial number. We began to wonder how common this was since matching Navy magazines are hard to find. Any comments? -- Bill