1940 P-08 War Relic info

[SRE]

I am new to Luger Forum but have been a member of Firing Line Forums for years. They said I should join here and post. This is the exact thread I started at FL

I have a Luger in the shop. Replacing the retainer spring and giving it a good once over for long term storage for my client. With his permission I am seeking some information as I am not too familiar with the historical aspects of these fine pieces of equipment. Please view photos. If anyone could provide some insight it would be much appreciated. It is slightly different from others I have seen.

- SN# 82XX
- Stamped 1940
- Has Nazi German markings in many locations and SN last 2 digits all over the small parts.
- We have the original holster, takedown tool, and extra magazine which all have their own spots in the holder itself.

Here is the kicker. He also has the ORIGINAL "AG USFET Form No 33" Certificate stating it was examined by the US government as captured enemy equipment and signed off in the possession of the new owner at that time. The certificate is dated June 5, 1946. And from the "Headquarters United States Forces European Theatre"

Also there is another original piece of literature stating the same thing as the "AG USFET Form No 33" but it just says "Certificate" at the top and it is dated Oct 11 1945. It was typed on a typewriter. However, this one is signed off by a different member of the military that the previous form dated from 1946. This certificate is from organization "976 FA BN" Higher ranking members of the military have signed these certificates allowing the pistol to have it's new American Owner.

What an amazing piece of history and I am fortunate to have it in my shop. Sure is a humbling experience handling this firearm wonder what it has been through and war it's played a role in.

Thank you in advance

Luger Forum Members... could this be a early variant of a Black Widow? The current owner bought it directly from the soldier that literally took it off a deceased German Officer. As far as we are being told. It's in amazing shape.

[Edward Tinker]

welcome to the forum, there were tens of thousands of 1940 / 42 marked lugers. Also, them coming back with bring back papers is not too uncommon.

The two papers being different dates is interesting, I am guessing the original paper was given to him and then he was reassigned to another unit, not coming back to the US in 1945.

Luger is a 1940 (date) 42 (Mauser) - I am not the best at telling if the grips are original, but they look like it to me. A 'black widow' is not a real term by the government, it is a made up term in the USA by allegedly Ralph Shattuck (so he told me), and yes, a 1940 / 42 would have wood grips. But since the later (towards the end of the production 1941 and 1942 era), so there would be replacement grips if the wood ones got damaged, or the GI liked how they looked better than the wood ones.
An all matching with holster, tool and matching magazine is very nice!
Not sure which spring is the retainer spring?

Ed

[tharpo]

Welcome to the Luger Forum! Nice example of a 1940-42.
Your Luger would have been issued two aluminum based magazines serial numbered to the gun. Your black plastic magazine would be a replacement.
It is possible that a small number of 1940-42 Luger were issued with black plastic grips but most had wood grips. No way of knowing what type of grips it left the Mauser factory with, but the fact that it almost straight from the vet helps its originality.

Tom

[SRE]

Retainer spring is the "locking bolt spring" I have been told the correct terminology is "retainer spring" but apparently the latter is incorrect. Thanks for the information. The firearm came with the magazine that matches the grip. Black, unmarked, plastic bottom. However the spare is of the aluminum variant.

[Edward Tinker]

A black bottom magazine would be a 'correct' replacement by say, a unit armorer - it is very common to see miss-matched aluminum or even wood bases with WW2 guns.

I always call it a locking bolt spring, but I bet your terminology is actually correct, sure would not be incorrect.

I'd love to see the magazine bottoms, sometimes an 'extra' mag can be worth $125 or it could be worth 2x or 3x - depends on what kind it is

I don't collect this era, although I have a 1939 police from a friend and he brought it back from WW2, I don't have any bring back papers. BTW, you can look up (if lucky) the soldiers name in the records and get basic info on them. By name it might come up with several same names, if it ha his army serial number, it has a good chance that we can look it up

http://aad.archives.gov/aad/

Ed

[ithacaartist]

Welcome, Sean, to the forum. Thanks for taking the trouble to join and show us this pistol.

You will notice a script "k" below the numeric digits on the front of the frame. This is part of the gun's serial number, thus the complete serial is 8282k. Some people seem reticent to post their complete serial numbers, typically in listing their firearm for sale or other public discussion/exposure--though nobody has ever presented me with a reason why, or what it accomplishes or protects. Subsequent proper descriptive photos usually reveal it, anyway. In this case, it is likely a courtesy extended to its owner...

One thing to check for evaluating the originality of the grips is whether or not the holes on their back sides are threaded, and if they will accept a grip screw.

Though it would seem you are not afflicted by the 'Luger Bug", enjoy your time here, and it might bite you, too!

[sheepherder]

There are some who feel the 'bring back' papers add to the value of the pistol. I don't agree, but if you are planning a display or a diorama they would be a nice addition.

I've always thought it would be amusing to do a Wehrmacht version of the 'bring back' papers [in German], describing an M1911A1 brought home [to Germany] by a returning German soldier.

I spent two weeks in Germany back in the 80's, at a Bundeswehr Luftwaffe air base. We had elderly German veterans as bus drivers. They all had souvenirs to sell, they all had stories, too - the most common one was to tell that they had fought the Russians, the French, and the British...but none had ever fought the Americans!

Ah, well. I drive a Nissan.

[guns3545]

Sean,

Well, your client certainly has a nice piece of WWII history.

This gun was made by Mauser in the later half of 1940, in the Autumn.

The finish on the 1940 production was very good, as early problems with the switch from Rust Bluing to Salt Bluing had been solved, and production stabilized. FYI, about 137,000 P.08s were produced by the Mauser Oberndorf plant in 1940.

This pistol probably left the factory with Brown Plastic grips transferred to Mauser from Krieghoff along with other parts left over from the completion of their contract with the Luftwaffe. These brown plastic grips are found in suffix blocks y, d, and g to k. Your pistol is a k-block gun. P.08s in these blocks were surrounded by P.08s equipped with walnut grips.

FYI, black plastic (Bakelite) grip panels did not appear until mid-1941 and were mixed with wood grip panels through end of production in 1942, early 1943.

Now if you permit me to take a little editorial license, about the same can be said of the switch from aluminum base and black plastic base magazines. This pistol probably left the factory with a Haenel type magazine, marked with the manufacturer code 122 and acceptance proof Eagle37 with an aluminum base and stamped with the complete serial number including suffix k. The second magazine would have been the same but also included a + sign indicating it was the spare.

Now, to set the record straight, Mauser never produced a pistol called the Black Widow. Nor did Mauser ever set out "intentionally" to produce a P.08 that, by design, had both black plastic grip panels and a magazine with a black plastic bottom.

Mauser did produce a war gun, designated the P.08. Depending on what was on the shelf; what they could get at a good price, or simply what was in the next barrel in line, they produced parts and/or assembled parts proved by their vendors. Thus starting in mid to late 1940 and expanding in mid-1941, you started to see combinations of grip panels and magazines types appearing. I leave you to calculate the number of combinations that are possible. But all are correct because a P.08 is a P.08 irrespective of the type of magazine or grip panel.

From a user's perspective, I am sure there was some preference for the Haenel design magazine over the Mauser made folded metal one. It was more stable and reliable. Less susceptible to jam and get them killed. They never thought about aluminum versus plastic base although plastic would break while aluminum dented.

From a grip standpoint, the walnut grips were susceptible to crack and break and were a pain in the a**. And they needed maintenance, i.e. work. Bakelite washed off, hardly ever broke.

Sorry for the verbosity. Hope it helps.

John

PS: BTW, Sperrstuck translates to locking bolt. Sperrstuck Feder is Locking bolt spring. Some call it the takedown lever.

[guns3545]

Sean,

Another thought. Nothing much is said about the magazines. If you provide detailed pictures of the magazines, especially the body and its markings, we may be able to tell you where and how it was produced.

John

[Sergio Natali]

Sean

First off welcome aboard, you'll probably find this Forum a bit different from many other gun forums on the Net.
Now coming to the gun you've got in your shop, I don't think there is that much to add apart from saying that your customer has got a nice example of Luger.
Are all the numbers matching?
As far as grips and mags are concerned I think they were replaced who knows when, as originally that gun probably left MAUSER with wooden grips and since they stopped producing wooden based mags if I'm not wrong around 1925 it probably had aluminium based mags.
The so called "bring back papers"somehow add to the value of the pistol, although a dyed-in-the-wool collector would surely prefer to have an all matching gun without papers.

Rgds


Sergio

[SRE]

before I respond any further, as im in the middle of trying to take photos of these magazines, I want to say thank you for being so informative and helpful. But also friendly.

The firearm this thread is about is in my shop for a replacement part and a good once over. But during it's stay I seemed to really appreciate it and be amazed by it, like no other pistol thats come through my doors. I asked the current owner to sell it to me. After a good week of working on him, he agreed. I paid a premium but I now own my first Luger and that's fine with me.

Sorry guys I couldn't contain myself it all just happened this morning.

Here are the photos of the magazine and the spring that needed to be replaced.

The bottom of the aluminum capped magazine is stamped "42"

Both mags have the exact same markings expect for the mag caps. One is unmarked black plastic, other is aluminum marked "42"

Other marking on each mag are the "P08" "fxo" and the "37 underneath the nazi symbol" --- the later marking is both on the top of the mag and the bottom underneath the "fxo"

Thanks so much

[tharpo]

SRE,
Black plastic bottomed fxo magazines were issued to late 1941 and 1942 Lugers. So yours is not original to your 1940 gun. The other magazine with the aluminum bottom has been altered. Magazines with fxo on the body had centered pinned bottoms, like on your black plastic magazine.
The aluminum bottom is from an earlier year and has been side pinned to the fxo body.

Tom

[guns3545]

Sean,

Thanks for the photos.

Well, both magazines are replacements of a sort.

First, fxo became Haenel's manufacturer code in January 1941. Thus the bodies of both magazines were made well after that date because the P.08 is right side up. Early production was upside down.

Secondly, the Black Bakelite center pin bottom looks like a standard type 6 magazine used in production and replacement in late 1941 until end of production. Looks normal.

But third, and a puzzler, the aluminum base on that Haenel body do not go together. They are a fabrication. The 42 code replacement solid aluminum base does not go with a fxo body. It is a puzzle to me.

Now the Police had a Haenel variation with a solid base but I have never seen a fxo body and a solid base. All are concave center pin.

John

PS: Whoops!! I see Tom covered this while I was typing!! We're saying the same thing.

[SRE]

Thanks guys! really appreciate the feedback. I am learning so much so fast!

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by SRE

The firearm this thread is about is in my shop for a replacement part and a good once over. But during it's stay I seemed to really appreciate it and be amazed by it, like no other pistol thats come through my doors. I asked the current owner to sell it to me. After a good week of working on him, he agreed. I paid a premium but I now own my first Luger and that's fine with me.

Gotcha!

From your posted pics, I figure the locking bolt spring was the part that was replaced. This little guy weakens or breaks not infrequently, but luckily it is not a numbered part, which would be more of a disaster to lose.

Your Luger is collectible, for sure, so now you have to decide whether to shoot it or not. Most would urge that it not be fired, an absolute guarantee of its continuing collectibility. The later Mausers are touted for their superior metallurgy, and may be somewhat more robust in this way than earlier ones produced. For this reason, they are regarded well as shooters. However, you may want to pick up another in the shooter category, so you can have the pleasure of shooting one while preserving this one's value. Whichever way you go for shooting a P.08, avoid +p, +p+, or any rounds marked NATO, all of which are too energetic for this pistol's action, bottoming things out until something eventually breaks. Winchester White Box is the consensual go-to round for shooting the 9mm, either 115 gr or 124 gr FMJ.

[SRE]

I want to shoot it. Made some very slightly reduced loads using Red Dot. But I probably will not, however im ready if I do. Thanks guys so much! Best forum ever.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by SRE

I want to shoot it. Made some very slightly reduced loads using Red Dot. But I probably will not, however im ready if I do. Thanks guys so much! Best forum ever.

You may find that your "reduced" loads will not function your luger.

For evaluation use the standard Winchester white box mentioned above, that will eliminate the ammo variable in your shooting.

Your pistol does not need nor will it function well with reduced loads, just do not use +P or HV loads.

[rhuff]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

You may find that your "reduced" loads will not function your luger.

For evaluation use the standard Winchester white box mentioned above, that will eliminate the ammo variable in your shooting.

Your pistol does not need nor will it function well with reduced loads, just do not use +P or HV loads.

I agree 100% with what Don said. These Lugers are designed to work within a certain range of recoil impulse when all of the springs, mag, etc. are correct. Reduced (soft) loads usually lead to shooter frustration. YMMV

[JonS/42]

I've had excellent results in the past couple of years using Federal Champion aluminum cased 115 gr ball, going for just under $10 fo a box of 50 at Wal-Mart.

Best, Jon

[derf0018]

The holes in the black grips are NOT there to hold the grip screws!

Fred