Norinco 9mm - Page 4

Sieger · 01-14-2010, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

Well, the barrel certainly is clean afterwards

Walter gives the following weights:
6.42 grams for the mE (99gr)
5.87 grams (90.6gr) for the SE).

The standard weight was 8 grams (123.5gr).

I can measure the exact weight differences if needed. Have enough reference specimens (just no loose bullets) over here.

Dear Vlim:

The Hornady Reloading Manual list the following as maximum for the respective weights:

90 grain 1,450 fps

100 grain 1,350 fps

124 grain 1,150 fps

FYI

Sieger

sheepherder · 01-14-2010, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

I usually use the scanner for the pistol rounds as well. Just select a slightly higher resolution (300 - 600dpi should work well).

Vlim -

What did you use for a backdrop??? I usually use a blue, pink, or yellow towel...Draped directly over the cartridges...

Here's two scans...both at 600dpi...with a dark and a light blue backdrop...

First pic is 7.63mm Mauser; second has the Norinco 9mm at top, and Federal 9mm at bottom...

Sieger · 01-14-2010, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

Vlim -

What did you use for a backdrop??? I usually use a blue, pink, or yellow towel...Draped directly over the cartridges...

Here's two scans...both at 600dpi...with a dark and a light blue backdrop...

Dear Postion:

Now that you have given me a good look at it, this is definately not the 124 gr Chinese ammo I have.

Mine is in a very "brassy" colored case, your looks like it has more of a copper composition to it. Also, mine is in a much "thinner" case; yours looks like, what I would consider, a normal military style case.

Well, the mystery continues. I'll be testing my ammo upon my upcoming trip to Florida.

Thanks!

Sieger

sheepherder · 01-14-2010, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sieger

Mine is in a very "brassy" colored case, your looks like it has more of a copper composition to it.

It could be me; my IBM G96 monitor displays everything very dark. I usually lighten my pics up in PSP to display them better.

Compared to the Federal 9mm, the Norinco case is quite a bit darker. The bullet itself is yellower than the case.

alvin · 01-14-2010, 06:45 PM

Could anyone tell me the twist of 9mm Parabellum Pistol?

"Submachine Gun Designer's Handbook" says 1/250 RH, could you confirm that?

Vlim · 01-16-2010, 10:09 AM

Yep, as well as that of the 7.65 para / .30 luger version.

Postino:
I've used different back drops for scanning cartridges, the simplest is just a plain piece of paper that I put on top of it (because my scanner has an insert for slide and negative scanning). What also works well is a small white plastic bottle that I cut up so that a U-shaped cover was left over. I put the round on the glass plate, place the U-shaped cover over it and then scan that area. Although it is white, the shadow creates a light grey background.

alvin · 01-16-2010, 10:21 AM

It's good to know, because the booklet did not say the weapon being a pistol or MP38/40 sub. 7,63 Mauser twist is 1/200 RH.

unspellable · 01-18-2010, 01:02 PM

There are two different ways to break a Luger with too hot a load, too much impulse or too much pressure. Pressure wise the action is quite strong so the usual way of damaging it is with too much impulse. Sieger's breech block slapping is an indication of too much impulse.

I have seen a breech block with the lower front edge blown off, a case of too much pressure. I have no idea what the load was, for all I know it was a compressed load of Bullseye. (I did see a S&W Model 10 that was blown open with a known case full of Bullseye.)

When adjusting a hand load look for the correct bullet weight and velocity combination. If that's right you're unlikely to be too high on pressure unless it's some weird off the wall load.

gordie k · 02-14-2010, 04:13 PM

gentleman; read all the posts with much interstes the prob.with the ammo is presser curve, refer to fokeys book on 34-42 michine guns when tested with us ammo many malfuncons switched to german all prob. went away. about 20-25 years ago in one of the gun books had a artical about the proper presser curve for a luger and what power to use. i work for wiselite arms and we have to match springs to ammo for proper operation
gordie k

unspellable · 02-14-2010, 09:54 PM

Pressure curve has absolutely nothing to do with anything as far as the Luger's functioning is concerned. Impulse has EVERY thing to do with it. The Luger has a RECOIL operated action, not a gas operated action where pressure curve might matter.

The cannon velocity is determined by impulse. The cannon momentum determines functioning. The pressure has fallen to essentially zero before the action unlocks. (Unlike some other recoil operated actions where the timing is such that the action unlocks sooner.) The pressure curve enters into this only insofar as you have to have a pressure curve in order to launch the bullet in the first place. A fast powder vs. a slow powder will make absolutely no difference given the same impulse for both loads.

Sieger · 02-16-2010, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gordie k

gentleman; read all the posts with much interstes the prob.with the ammo is presser curve, refer to fokeys book on 34-42 michine guns when tested with us ammo many malfuncons switched to german all prob. went away. about 20-25 years ago in one of the gun books had a artical about the proper presser curve for a luger and what power to use. i work for wiselite arms and we have to match springs to ammo for proper operation
gordie k

Hi:

I have to tell you first, that Unspellable is, indeed, a highly respected Professional Engineer in real life, but, here I have to disagree with him and agree with you, based on my 30 plus years of reloading for the Luger.

I have found that loading with a powder similar to the original DWM powder and at the same velocity, does, indeed increase both accuracy and functionality of a Luger.

Powder should be "medium slow". Try Power Pistol or IMR SR 4756, as these are the closest powders I've found to date.

When you can fire a Luger 1,000 times without a function problem, and with extreme accuracy, you have found the right combination.

Sieger

01-16-2010, 10:21 AM	#67
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	It's good to know, because the booklet did not say the weapon being a pistol or MP38/40 sub. 7,63 Mauser twist is 1/200 RH. Attached Thumbnails

01-14-2010, 06:45 PM	#65
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Could anyone tell me the twist of 9mm Parabellum Pistol? "Submachine Gun Designer's Handbook" says 1/250 RH, could you confirm that?

01-16-2010, 10:09 AM	#66
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Yep, as well as that of the 7.65 para / .30 luger version. Postino: I've used different back drops for scanning cartridges, the simplest is just a plain piece of paper that I put on top of it (because my scanner has an insert for slide and negative scanning). What also works well is a small white plastic bottle that I cut up so that a U-shaped cover was left over. I put the round on the glass plate, place the U-shaped cover over it and then scan that area. Although it is white, the shadow creates a light grey background.

01-18-2010, 01:02 PM	#68
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	There are two different ways to break a Luger with too hot a load, too much impulse or too much pressure. Pressure wise the action is quite strong so the usual way of damaging it is with too much impulse. Sieger's breech block slapping is an indication of too much impulse. I have seen a breech block with the lower front edge blown off, a case of too much pressure. I have no idea what the load was, for all I know it was a compressed load of Bullseye. (I did see a S&W Model 10 that was blown open with a known case full of Bullseye.) When adjusting a hand load look for the correct bullet weight and velocity combination. If that's right you're unlikely to be too high on pressure unless it's some weird off the wall load.

02-14-2010, 04:13 PM	#69
gordie k New User Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 1 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	gentleman; read all the posts with much interstes the prob.with the ammo is presser curve, refer to fokeys book on 34-42 michine guns when tested with us ammo many malfuncons switched to german all prob. went away. about 20-25 years ago in one of the gun books had a artical about the proper presser curve for a luger and what power to use. i work for wiselite arms and we have to match springs to ammo for proper operation gordie k

02-14-2010, 09:54 PM	#70
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	Pressure curve has absolutely nothing to do with anything as far as the Luger's functioning is concerned. Impulse has EVERY thing to do with it. The Luger has a RECOIL operated action, not a gas operated action where pressure curve might matter. The cannon velocity is determined by impulse. The cannon momentum determines functioning. The pressure has fallen to essentially zero before the action unlocks. (Unlike some other recoil operated actions where the timing is such that the action unlocks sooner.) The pressure curve enters into this only insofar as you have to have a pressure curve in order to launch the bullet in the first place. A fast powder vs. a slow powder will make absolutely no difference given the same impulse for both loads.