Please Excuse Erics' More Ignorrance

[cirelaw]

I've heard the term 'sneak' luger but cannot find reference in Kenyan's or other books I own. I guess they deserve their label!

[Don M]

Eric, the term "sneak" was coined by collectors years ago to refer to the Lugers manufactured by DWM/BKIW in 1928-29 that do not have the DWM logo on the toggle. These Lugers fall in the s, t and u suffix ranges that Jan Still calls "29 DWM." Most went to the police. The apparent reason for the name was the belief that the lack of a manufacturer's logo indicated they were being "snuck" past the Allies. That theory was largely discredited but the name has stuck. The truth has recently been published in Hallock and van de Kamp's book. These guns were originally manufactured for the Riff Tribe in North Africa in 1927-28. The toggles were left blank because of political sensitivity about Germany supplying guns to this tribe. Ultimately, the sale was decided to be too risky and the guns ended up being sold to the police instead. I guess the term "sneak" is still appropriate but it was for a different reason.

[cirelaw]

WOW! For every luger there is a story. Thank You, now I know where to look!

[cirelaw]

or what is it? TKS

[policeluger]

Police with a speedy strap to pull out of holster, got one just like it here somewhere.....

[cirelaw]

Thank You for your clarifiction!

[Don M]

Eric, this one probably has one of the 29 DWM suffixes. I don't have my glasses on right now. Some people (usually Sellers) would call it a sneak for that reason. However, it does have the DWM logo so it is not one of the ones originally intended for the Riff contract.

[cirelaw]

They are just so cooool! tks

[Lugerdoc]

I'd like to see some proof of a "Riff" contract. A much more logical explanation for the lack of the DWM toggle logo on these BKIW assembled lugers, is that DWM took no responsibility for them. TH

[cirelaw]

Weren't Germans meticulous at keeping records or were they all destroyed in both wars?

[Edward Tinker]

Tom, in Joops new book on the subject, August Weis' told the above story in his journal....


I've always thought the 'no responsibility' thing was a bit odd; DWM made lugers throughout the 1920-1930's and then parts went to mauser and mauser did not want to take responsibility? Why? What were they hiding?

It wasn't for the IMMK, they left in 1927...


Ed

[Mauser720]

There is also information about these so-called "sneak Lugers" in the Gortz/Sturgess book "Pistole Parabellum", vol. II, pages 536 and 537.

According to them, the pistols were made by BKIW who could deliver them at prices below the Simson prices and could be termed "non-military" since they were intended for police use. "It would seem that the whole subterfuge of dispensing with revealing markings, such as the year of manufacture and producer identification, was to deceive the public, including the management of the Simson company and the watchful liberal press." (page #536)

"American collectors in the past have coined the term "sneak" Luger for this Parabellum variant, supposing the need for concealment of origin to have been related to initial rearmament under the Nazi in 1933 and 1934, and citing further the presence of HWaA acceptance marks as proof of their intended military destination. This is to misunderstand both their date of manufacture and the reasons, outlined above, for the clandestine appearance of these guns and their mode of procurement and inspection." (page #537)

[Don M]

Ron, what source is cited in Pistole Parabellum for this information?

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by Mauser720

...

According to them, the pistols were made by BKIW who could deliver them at prices below the Simson prices and could be termed "non-military" since they were intended for police use. "It would seem that the whole subterfuge of dispensing with revealing markings, such as the year of manufacture and producer identification, was to deceive the public, including the management of the Simson company and the watchful liberal press." (page #536) ...

I find this harder to believe than the Riff contract...


Ed

[cirelaw]

Where can I find this book?

[Mauser720]

Don -

There are no footnotes or other authors cited for these statements.

However, they do have a translated facsimile of a very detailed order from the Prussian Minister of the Interior to the Regierungsprusident of Berlin, dated May 29, 1929, that all uniformed Landjager were to be re-armed with the P.08. "Marking of pistols will be refrained from until after publication of a new edition of the Arms and Ammunition Instruction."

Another translated facsimile of a letter dated May 23, 1931 from the Prussian Minister of the Interior states in part "As the '08 Pistol is an Army weapon which is not available commercially and which can not be obtained throught the Reichswehrministerium, I will interced to procure '08 Pistols."

The authors state: "In fact, however, the pistols in question were procured from BKIW, as becomes apparent from machining characteristics and from the complete absence of any Simson-related internal or external markings."

So these two letters, and their examination of the pistols, etc., seem to be the basis upon which Gortz & Sturgess base their findings.

Ed -

I know next to nothing about the "Riff Contract"; however, given the turmoil inside the country at the time, it does not seem unreasonable (in my opinion) that some within the government would have wanted to prevent supporting or dealing with Simson. However, I know you are the expert in the area of Simson and Simson Lugers.

Eric -

You can get this set of books at any of the usual sources, Simpsons, etc. I got mine from a seller on Ebay who was offering it at substantially less than the suggested retail price. I paid $318.75 plus shipping (I've forgotten what that was) using "Buy It Now" from this Ebay seller: blradiolabs

[cirelaw]

I guess I opened a historical can of worms. Your a heck of an investagator! THANK YOU

[Don M]

Ron, I agree with Ed and consider the handwritten notes of August Weiss as recorded on pp. 339-40 of The Mauser Parabellum 1930-1946 to be much more credible and to the point. The two documents reproduced in Pistole Parabellum have been known for some time and really don't address blank toggles. The philosophical principal known as "Occam's Razor" states that a conclusion requiring the fewest assumptions is usually correct. In this case, the only assumptions required for the Riff Contract explanation is that Weiss was telling the truth and that his memory was accurate. There is a whole series of assumptions involved in the alternate conclusion.

[Don M]

[QUOTE=Don M;188903]

Originally Posted by Mauser720

However, they do have a translated facsimile of a very detailed order from the Prussian Minister of the Interior to the Regierungsprusident of Berlin, dated May 29, 1920, that all uniformed Landjager were to be re-armed with the P.08. "Marking of pistols will be refrained from until after publication of a new edition of the Arms and Ammunition Instruction."

I don't know if it is a typo or not but this order was issued in 1929.

[Edward Tinker]

Don and if memory serves me correct, that in Gortz and Bryans, this same marking / lack of marking pertains to grip strap markings and has nothing to do with manufacturer markings.


Ed