"Hold me in honor", Chinese version :)

alvin · 03-25-2012, 08:23 PM

All Mauser collectors know there was a "Hold me in honor" Conehammer, with lots of text engraved on magazine well, in memorial of German Keiser shot that gun in 1896.

Just saw a Chinese version of this on an Astra 900. It's not unusual to see Hanzi on some guns of Chinese provenance, but this one is unusual with so long text. Enjoy!

sheepherder · 03-25-2012, 08:51 PM

I don't read Chinese, so I don't know what it says...But a Chinese copy of a Spanish copy of a C96 Mauser is pretty amusing in and of itself...

alvin · 03-25-2012, 09:00 PM

Looks like it's a gift from a nationalist divisional commander to a man under him.

Division commander Chen said
You hold this gun
must do your best to eradicate 'red bandits' (i.e. communists)
suppress civil turmoil
fight against foreign aggression
to fulfill your duty of defending the country and protecting the people.

sheepherder · 03-25-2012, 09:24 PM

Thank You!

I think Google will translate Chinese, but I do not have Chinese fonts in my version of Windows, and would probably not get the right character as shown in the pic anyway...Aren't there hundreds of characters in traditional [Mandarin?] Chinese???

Douglas Jr. · 03-25-2012, 09:37 PM

It's not a Chinese version of a Astra pistol. It is an Astra 900... you can even read the "Guernica" under the chinese characters...
But it's very interesting and impressive. I would love to have this one.
Douglas.

alvin · 03-25-2012, 09:41 PM

Google is good on translating one western language into another western language. It does not work well on translating Chinese into English. For example, above mentioned "said", written in Chinese a special Hanzi was used (the one on lower right corner) to indicate it was a high rank person telling a lower rank person. I just tried google, it wrongly translates "divisional commander" into "teacher", obviously ignored the context. You can try it:

師長陳光中諭
你拿着這桿槍
要努力剷除赤
匪平定內亂抗
御外侮以盡衛
國保民的天職

sheepherder · 03-25-2012, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

Google is good on translating one western language into another western language. It does not work well on translating Chinese into English...You can try it:

師長陳光中諭
你拿着這桿槍
要努力剷除赤
匪平定內亂抗
御外侮以盡衛
國保民的天職

Yeah...Google leaves a bit to be desired...

TheRomanhistorian · 03-25-2012, 11:50 PM

Interesting text, I just had a read through it (I only read about a few hundred Chinese characters out of the 40,000 (if memory serves)). I wonder if it was an award of some sort since this is a rather personal message with the first character being used is one for 'teacher' or 'master' (like si-fu), I almost wonder if this was some sort of presentation piece from a military instructor to a graduating cadet? Sadly, I'm not a Pinyin person (I'm old school Wade-Giles) but I wonder if we could learn more about this Chan Kwong Chung.

I enjoyed that bit about suppressing internal turmoil and protecting from foreign incursions, it's written in a neat way, almost reminds me of basic level poetry the way it evokes the 'heavenly duty' of guarding one's country and protecting the people or maybe evoking some sort of Imperial decree. Very, very cool! Where did you find this, Alvin? I won't attempt my own translation as I don't think I'd do the original Chinese justice. I would love to have something like this in my collection, I wonder if it dates from the Warlord period or after the Nationalist Northern Expedition.

alvin · 03-26-2012, 06:45 AM

Doug,

you're right, it's a genuine Astra 900. I referred the text being Chinese version of 'hold me in honor' type.

Michael,

This is a nice historical piece. Availability please see private message.

I was wondering the same thing, "Who's this division commander?" (definitely not 'teacher' in this context), and I found one man with this name in that period.

Chan Kwong Chung, 1897-1949, male, born in Hunan Province, started his career as a 'bandit' himself in his early years

(not very surprising, numerous nationalist and communist leaders started their career that way in the Great Turmoil). Later, his group was absorbed into Hunan local army. In 1926, he served as a battalion commander of National Revolution Army and joined Northern Expedition. Starting from there, he joined series of anti-communist Extermination Compaigns and inter-warlords warfare. In 1931, he was appointed as the division commander of the 63th Division, but he lost that position in 1938 due to military failure in fighting Japanese in Shanghai and returned to home. In August of 1949, he organized a "Chinese People Anti-Communism Self-Defense Army" in his hometown. On December 6 of that year, he was captured by communist. On December 25, suppressed.

Douglas Jr. · 03-26-2012, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

Doug,

you're right, it's a genuine Astra 900. I referred the text being Chinese version of 'hold me in honor' type.

In August of 1949, he organized a "Chinese People Anti-Communism Self-Defense Army" in his hometown. On December 6 of that year, he was captured by communist. On December 25, suppressed.

Alvin,

I got the meaning of your post. I was referring to Postino's answer above (when he said: "a Chinese copy of a Spanish copy of a C96 Mauser is pretty amusing in and of itself..."). I know if there is someone here that won't get confused among Broohandles version it'll be you.

Concerning the final part of your message above, a better translation would be "executed" instead of "suppressed", knowing what Mao's soldiers would do in such case.

All the best,
Douglas

TheRomanhistorian · 03-26-2012, 12:35 PM

Alvin, interesting history for this man. I might ask one of my colleagues, a Chinese historian of modern China to see if she can perhaps look at the dedication and maybe dig up a bit more (if that's ok with you and, of course, if she has the time). It stirs up my undergrad days when I dabbled in Chinese history as a hobby away from Roman stuff and it reminds me of a book I read about warlords often issuing pistols like the C-96 and the Astra, as well as revolvers, to some of their melee units with the large Chinese dao.

alvin · 03-26-2012, 12:45 PM

Doug, that's right, he's executed. "Suppressed" is a very common word in the Chinese historical recording of that period. In western movies, captured prisoner was simply shot in front of a building or wall, but Mao's communist way was unique.

Usually, they would send the prisoner back to his hometown and assemble a few thousand people watching the trial. As a commander running extermination policy in the past, even if he did not kill anyone himself, his subordinates must have killed some or even a lot. Now, those victims' relatives become "jury", one by one, crying, pointing fingers towards the captured, showing bloody clothes that they had saved many years, etc, etc. So the final trial result was almost invariably "prisoner was suppressed (executed) in front of charges soaking in blood and tears".

alvin · 03-26-2012, 04:13 PM

One collector in another gun forum kindly reminded me there could be another interpretation of the 1st sentence. I thought it over,,,,,although less likely,,,,,due to built-in ambiguity in Chinese language, I agree that's possible. This could also be a gift that Chan's superior sent to him! The rest of text were instruction to him. In that scenario, the gun could come from nationalist supreme commander.

Greg B. · 03-28-2012, 02:49 PM

Years ago I belonged to a gun club and one of the Chinese members there told a story about how popular the fully automatic C-96 was during the Warlord Era in China. Apparently you carried the thing through your belt and when the need arose pulled it out, pointed it at waist
level, held the the triger down and swiveled through a 180 degree arc. It was really effective for clearing a room.
Very interesting thread. I never knew the Spanish produced a copy of the broomhandle. Thanks for posting that nice picture Alvin.

Greg B.

alvin · 03-28-2012, 06:12 PM

Many C96s appeared on Chinese period photos did not have stocks. Probably too easy to get damaged, and was thrown away. When shooting the gun from hip, the natural pose is turning the gun a little bit instead of hold it upright. So, I have some doubt that "180 degree" story... anyway, a few old photos here posted by other gun lovers.

alanint · 03-28-2012, 06:27 PM

Very interesting "Belt Clip" for the broomhandle.

alvin · 03-28-2012, 06:43 PM

The belt clip was a very practical device. So this gun could be carried without stock. Simply inserting a C96 between belly and belt had one big disadvantage -- the gun's big front sight could easily be caught by the belt when drawing the pistol out in emergency. Belt clip could solve that problem.

saab-bob · 03-28-2012, 07:07 PM

Alvin
No wonder the finish on all the Chinese C-96's are all worn off! They where never carried in a holster.

I also have some concern with where the muzzle of those
C-96's are pointed. If there was ever a accidental discharge,you would be endangering your future family.

Bob

alvin · 03-28-2012, 08:11 PM

Most C96s came from China were in NRA fair to poor shape. Reason? Tough environment was one. But there was another reason: C96 pistol was used as an infantry weapon in China, not a side arm.

German made probably 10 million Mauser rifles.... but NRA excellent Mauser rifle is scarce on the U.S. gun market. Finding a mint Mauser military rifle is harder than finding a Red 9, or Luger, Why? because it's an infantry weapon, used hard.

Greg B. · 03-29-2012, 02:27 PM

Learned something new again. Didn't know they made belt clips for these guns. Really enjoyed the photos.

Greg B.

03-25-2012, 08:23 PM	#1
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	"Hold me in honor", Chinese version :) All Mauser collectors know there was a "Hold me in honor" Conehammer, with lots of text engraved on magazine well, in memorial of German Keiser shot that gun in 1896. Just saw a Chinese version of this on an Astra 900. It's not unusual to see Hanzi on some guns of Chinese provenance, but this one is unusual with so long text. Enjoy! Attached Thumbnails

03-25-2012, 08:51 PM	#2
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	I don't read Chinese, so I don't know what it says...But a Chinese copy of a Spanish copy of a C96 Mauser is pretty amusing in and of itself... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

03-25-2012, 09:24 PM	#4
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	Thank You! I think Google will translate Chinese, but I do not have Chinese fonts in my version of Windows, and would probably not get the right character as shown in the pic anyway...Aren't there hundreds of characters in traditional [Mandarin?] Chinese??? __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

03-25-2012, 11:50 PM	#8
TheRomanhistorian User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 301 Thanks: 170 Thanked 88 Times in 64 Posts	Interesting text, I just had a read through it (I only read about a few hundred Chinese characters out of the 40,000 (if memory serves)). I wonder if it was an award of some sort since this is a rather personal message with the first character being used is one for 'teacher' or 'master' (like si-fu), I almost wonder if this was some sort of presentation piece from a military instructor to a graduating cadet? Sadly, I'm not a Pinyin person (I'm old school Wade-Giles) but I wonder if we could learn more about this Chan Kwong Chung. I enjoyed that bit about suppressing internal turmoil and protecting from foreign incursions, it's written in a neat way, almost reminds me of basic level poetry the way it evokes the 'heavenly duty' of guarding one's country and protecting the people or maybe evoking some sort of Imperial decree. Very, very cool! Where did you find this, Alvin? I won't attempt my own translation as I don't think I'd do the original Chinese justice. I would love to have something like this in my collection, I wonder if it dates from the Warlord period or after the Nationalist Northern Expedition. __________________ Michael Nos morituri te salutant - Supposed saying of the gladiators to the emperor ('We, who are about to die, salute you.') 'We are the lantern bearers, my friend; for us to keep something burning, to carry what light we can forward into the darkness and the wind' - From Rosemary Sutcliff's The Lantern Bearers

03-26-2012, 12:35 PM	#11
TheRomanhistorian User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 301 Thanks: 170 Thanked 88 Times in 64 Posts	Alvin, interesting history for this man. I might ask one of my colleagues, a Chinese historian of modern China to see if she can perhaps look at the dedication and maybe dig up a bit more (if that's ok with you and, of course, if she has the time). It stirs up my undergrad days when I dabbled in Chinese history as a hobby away from Roman stuff and it reminds me of a book I read about warlords often issuing pistols like the C-96 and the Astra, as well as revolvers, to some of their melee units with the large Chinese dao. __________________ Michael Nos morituri te salutant - Supposed saying of the gladiators to the emperor ('We, who are about to die, salute you.') 'We are the lantern bearers, my friend; for us to keep something burning, to carry what light we can forward into the darkness and the wind' - From Rosemary Sutcliff's The Lantern Bearers

03-25-2012, 09:00 PM	#3
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Looks like it's a gift from a nationalist divisional commander to a man under him. Division commander Chen said You hold this gun must do your best to eradicate 'red bandits' (i.e. communists) suppress civil turmoil fight against foreign aggression to fulfill your duty of defending the country and protecting the people.

03-25-2012, 09:37 PM	#5
Douglas Jr. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: South America Posts: 948 Thanks: 598 Thanked 584 Times in 254 Posts	It's not a Chinese version of a Astra pistol. It is an Astra 900... you can even read the "Guernica" under the chinese characters... But it's very interesting and impressive. I would love to have this one. Douglas.

03-25-2012, 09:41 PM	#6
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Google is good on translating one western language into another western language. It does not work well on translating Chinese into English. For example, above mentioned "said", written in Chinese a special Hanzi was used (the one on lower right corner) to indicate it was a high rank person telling a lower rank person. I just tried google, it wrongly translates "divisional commander" into "teacher", obviously ignored the context. You can try it: 師長陳光中諭你拿着這桿槍要努力剷除赤匪平定內亂抗御外侮以盡衛國保民的天職

03-26-2012, 06:45 AM	#9
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Doug, you're right, it's a genuine Astra 900. I referred the text being Chinese version of 'hold me in honor' type. Michael, This is a nice historical piece. Availability please see private message. I was wondering the same thing, "Who's this division commander?" (definitely not 'teacher' in this context), and I found one man with this name in that period. Chan Kwong Chung, 1897-1949, male, born in Hunan Province, started his career as a 'bandit' himself in his early years (not very surprising, numerous nationalist and communist leaders started their career that way in the Great Turmoil). Later, his group was absorbed into Hunan local army. In 1926, he served as a battalion commander of National Revolution Army and joined Northern Expedition. Starting from there, he joined series of anti-communist Extermination Compaigns and inter-warlords warfare. In 1931, he was appointed as the division commander of the 63th Division, but he lost that position in 1938 due to military failure in fighting Japanese in Shanghai and returned to home. In August of 1949, he organized a "Chinese People Anti-Communism Self-Defense Army" in his hometown. On December 6 of that year, he was captured by communist. On December 25, suppressed.

03-26-2012, 12:45 PM	#12
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Doug, that's right, he's executed. "Suppressed" is a very common word in the Chinese historical recording of that period. In western movies, captured prisoner was simply shot in front of a building or wall, but Mao's communist way was unique. Usually, they would send the prisoner back to his hometown and assemble a few thousand people watching the trial. As a commander running extermination policy in the past, even if he did not kill anyone himself, his subordinates must have killed some or even a lot. Now, those victims' relatives become "jury", one by one, crying, pointing fingers towards the captured, showing bloody clothes that they had saved many years, etc, etc. So the final trial result was almost invariably "prisoner was suppressed (executed) in front of charges soaking in blood and tears".

03-26-2012, 04:13 PM	#13
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	One collector in another gun forum kindly reminded me there could be another interpretation of the 1st sentence. I thought it over,,,,,although less likely,,,,,due to built-in ambiguity in Chinese language, I agree that's possible. This could also be a gift that Chan's superior sent to him! The rest of text were instruction to him. In that scenario, the gun could come from nationalist supreme commander.

03-28-2012, 02:49 PM	#14
Greg B. User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 34 Thanks: 1 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	Years ago I belonged to a gun club and one of the Chinese members there told a story about how popular the fully automatic C-96 was during the Warlord Era in China. Apparently you carried the thing through your belt and when the need arose pulled it out, pointed it at waist level, held the the triger down and swiveled through a 180 degree arc. It was really effective for clearing a room. Very interesting thread. I never knew the Spanish produced a copy of the broomhandle. Thanks for posting that nice picture Alvin. Greg B.

03-28-2012, 06:12 PM	#15
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Many C96s appeared on Chinese period photos did not have stocks. Probably too easy to get damaged, and was thrown away. When shooting the gun from hip, the natural pose is turning the gun a little bit instead of hold it upright. So, I have some doubt that "180 degree" story... anyway, a few old photos here posted by other gun lovers. Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

03-28-2012, 06:27 PM	#16
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Very interesting "Belt Clip" for the broomhandle.

03-28-2012, 06:43 PM	#17
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	The belt clip was a very practical device. So this gun could be carried without stock. Simply inserting a C96 between belly and belt had one big disadvantage -- the gun's big front sight could easily be caught by the belt when drawing the pistol out in emergency. Belt clip could solve that problem. Attached Thumbnails

03-28-2012, 07:07 PM	#18
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	Alvin No wonder the finish on all the Chinese C-96's are all worn off! They where never carried in a holster. I also have some concern with where the muzzle of those C-96's are pointed. If there was ever a accidental discharge,you would be endangering your future family. Bob __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"

03-28-2012, 08:11 PM	#19
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Most C96s came from China were in NRA fair to poor shape. Reason? Tough environment was one. But there was another reason: C96 pistol was used as an infantry weapon in China, not a side arm. German made probably 10 million Mauser rifles.... but NRA excellent Mauser rifle is scarce on the U.S. gun market. Finding a mint Mauser military rifle is harder than finding a Red 9, or Luger, Why? because it's an infantry weapon, used hard.

03-29-2012, 02:27 PM	#20
Greg B. User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 34 Thanks: 1 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	Learned something new again. Didn't know they made belt clips for these guns. Really enjoyed the photos. Greg B.