I Give Up on the P08

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

I have well over a dozen original excellent condition Lugers both WWI and WWII commercial and military. The only ones that shoot fine every time are the LP08 Artilleries and 7.65 Para guns, the DWM 1900 and three W+F 06/29 in the standard issue and National Match configurations. My present frustration is with trying to tune a P08 with a Wolff spring kit, where none of the available combinations makes for reliable cycling of WWB and its likes. I will try a box of NATO loads, but they don't make for a long term solution in a Luger.

There is something very wrong here.

Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

I went thru a lot with 4" 9mm guns as we were trying to find a good cast bullet load. Seemed like no 4" gun liked them, however the Artillery and Navy models would shoot them. Send one gun to Lugerdoc, who shot it (with factory ammo I'm sure) and he sent it back as good to go. Still wouldn't shoot the cast bullet loads but would run with S&B 115 fmj.
Then I switched all my loads to 115 FMJ (back when you could still find them...) and all has been well since.
It seems to have been an issue of pressure and sufficient recoil that made the difference, however the same load/powder was used in both instances.
So to make a long story shorter, it was the ammo for me that made the difference. The right ammo and even my 4" Lugers have become quite reliable.
And I am now forced to go back to cast bullets, so the circle of frustration begins once again.
dju

Dave:

You should try some lead cast bullets, out of the RCBS 121 grain Truncated Cone mold, with an O.A.L. of 1.142 inches (29 mms) and sized to .356 inches. For me, the best powder to date has been Accurate #5 (very accurate).

Lugers are "timed" for bullets between 115 grains and 130 grains. Other weights may or may not function trustworthly.

Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

I understand short-stroking as a stoppage caused by the breech failing to retract far enough to eject the spent case. All my Lugers are original. In my experience, action parts don't interchange even on W+F and HK Lugers allegedly made to be amenable to mixing and matching.

Dave:

Typically the "Luger Jam" is not an ejection problem, but rather, a hang-up with the next round stuck partially up the feed ramp. Is this your problem?

Your extractor spring could be too weak, but not in a dozen different pistols.


Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Curly1

Try some of the steel case Tula if you haven't already.

Ouch!!!


Sieger

[Jack Lawman]

Steel vs. Brass cased ammo torture test:
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/bras...mmo/#bookmark0

Not lugers, but a lot of great info obtained through exhaustive testing.

Jack

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Typically the "Luger Jam" is not an ejection problem, but rather, a hang-up with the next round stuck partially up the feed ramp. Is this your problem?

Your extractor spring could be too weak, but not in a dozen different pistols.

That may well be the typical issue, but in my case the problem is clearly an instance of short-stroking suggestive of excessive mainspring rate even with a 36 pound spring in place.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Sieger

You should try the RCBS 121 gr Truncated Cone...

...???...What are you referring to here???

[skeeter4206]

Talking about O.A.L, it surprised me just how much of a difference in length old 9mm (DWM) versus modern ammo. At least what I have been shooting lately as 9mm aint exactly easy to get what you want anymore. Its almost 2mm shorter than 1917 DWM brand rounds that I have put away. I wonder if thats my issue, as mine jams pretty frequently with that ammo. I'm trhinking its remington, its got R-P on the bottom of the casing.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

That may well be the typical issue, but in my case the problem is clearly an instance of short-stroking suggestive of excessive mainspring rate even with a 36 pound spring in place.

Mike:

Please take a look at the specs. of the ammo you are shooting, as what you are suggesting as the problem seems almost impossible to me, given the "hotness" of modern 9 mm ammo.

Original DWM specs.: 123 grain bullet at 1,076 fps.

WWB specs.: 115 grain bullet at 1,190 fps.

NATO Military spec.: 121 grain bullet at 1,260 fps.

What you are suggesting as the problem should be just the opposite, that being, that hotter ammo should need a heavier spring, not a lighter one. Make sense?

Thanks!


Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by skeeter4206

Talking about O.A.L, it surprised me just how much of a difference in length old 9mm (DWM) versus modern ammo. At least what I have been shooting lately as 9mm aint exactly easy to get what you want anymore. Its almost 2mm shorter than 1917 DWM brand rounds that I have put away. I wonder if thats my issue, as mine jams pretty frequently with that ammo. I'm trhinking its remington, its got R-P on the bottom of the casing.

Skeeter:

I bet you can fire a magazine loaded with only 5 round with no problem at all.


Sieger

[G.T.]

Hi Rich, Lyman makes a 122 gr. truncated cone cast bullet mold.. it's been around forever and might be one of their all time best sellers... RCBS makes basically the same bullet mold, only it has a slight radius at the metplat ... nice bullets, and they work well...both of them.. look kinda neat also....... best to you, til..lat'r...GT

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Dave:

Please take a look at the specs. of the ammo you are shooting, as what you are suggesting as the problem seems almost impossible to me, given the "hotness" of modern 9 mm ammo.

Original DWM specs.: 123 grain bullet at 1,076 fps.

WWB specs.: 115 grain bullet at 1,190 fps.

NATO Military spec.: 121 grain bullet at 1,260 fps.

What you are suggesting as the problem should be just the opposite, that being, that hotter ammo should need a heavier spring, not a lighter one. Make sense?

Thanks!


Sieger

First off, I am not Dave. Secondly, the Luger toggle action reciprocates in proportion to the bullet's momentum, not its muzzle energy. That's why WWB works so well with the original spring rates -- for everyone else, but not for me.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by postino

...???...What are you referring to here???

Hi:

Please reread my modified posting above.

Thanks!


Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by G.T.

Hi Rich, Lyman makes a 122 gr. truncated cone cast bullet mold.. it's been around forever and might be one of their all time best sellers... RCBS makes basically the same bullet mold, only it has a slight radius at the metplat ... nice bullets, and they work well...both of them.. look kinda neat also....... best to you, til..lat'r...GT

GT:

The Lyman has much too short of a bearing surface, as compared to the one caliber bearing surface of the RCBS mold. This causes the Lyman bullet to "jump" to the rifling,vs, being right on it. Accuracy is much better for me with the RCBS mold.

Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

First off, I am not Dave. Secondly, the Luger toggle action reciprocates in proportion to the bullet's momentum, not its muzzle energy. That's why WWB works so well with the original spring rates -- for everyone else, but not for me.

Mike:

Sorry I screwed-up your first name, but these things just happen sometimes.

The figures I quoted above are not the muzzle energy of the bullets, but rather, their velocity.

I'm very sorry, but I don't agree with you, as NATO spec. ammo will peen the heck out of the back of your breach block, whereas, proper spec. ammo, will not. Obviously, the breach block is moving much faster with the NATO spec. ammo and with much more rearward force.

Given the same weight bullet, as you add more velocity to the bullet, the momentum of that bullet increases accordingly.


Sieger

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by Sieger

I'm very sorry, but I don't agree with you, as NATO spec. ammo will peen the heck out of the back of your breach block, whereas, proper spec. ammo, will not. Obviously, the breach block is moving faster with the NATO spec. ammo and with much more rearward force.

You aren't disagreeing with me. If you do the math, NATO spec ammo has about 20% more momentum than the original DWM loading, whereas the momentum of WWB is approximately its equal.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Dave:

You should try some lead cast bullets, out of the RCBS 121 grain Truncated Cone mold...

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi:
Please reread my modified posting above.
Thanks!

Sieger

Yes, that does make a bit more sense...

Have you tried the 124gr FMJ truncated cone Hornady bullets??? I used them in my 357 AMP and 38/45 Clerke cartridges...

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by postino

Yes, that does make a bit more sense...

Have you tried the 124gr FMJ truncated cone Hornady bullets??? I used them in my 357 AMP and 38/45 Clerke cartridges...

Postino:

Yes, the Hornady 124 grain FMJFP bullet is one of my favorites for the 9mm Luger pistol!!!

This particular bullet ("called the Air Force Bullet") was developed for our military, some 30 years or so ago, back when they were considering the adoption of a 9 mm pistol.

In a Luger, if loaded to 28.7 mm of O.A.L., this one functions the action perfectly, and is highly accurate!

By the way, I've seen data for the RCBS Lead 121 TC bullet, for the .38 Super, well into the 1,200 fps range, so it might be interesting for you to try them with the two fine cartridges you have mentioned above.


Sieger

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Postino:

Yes, the Hornady 124 grain FMJFP bullet is one of my favorites for the 9mm Luger pistol!!!

This particular bullet ("called the Air Force Bullet") was developed for our military, some 30 years or so ago, back when they were considering the adoption of a 9 mm pistol.

In a Luger, if loaded to 28.7 mm of O.A.L., this one functions the action perfectly, and is highly accurate!

I am informed by the Sales Dept at Hornady that the 3556 FMJ-FP bullet in 100 count boxes has been discontinued -

Thank you for your inquiry. Unfortunately our SKU#3556 9mm 124gr FMJ-FP Bullet in the 100 count box has been discontinued. We suggest that you might look for SKU#35567B 9mm 124gr FMJ-FP Bullet in the 2900 count box.

Thank you again.

Hornady Sales Team

Phone 1-800-338-3220

I am wondering if there is enough interest in a 'group buy' for the 2900 count box...

Item Number 35567B
Ballistic Coefficient (G1) .160
Sectional Density .141
Quantity 2,900/Case
Price: $360.33

That works out to roughly $12.50 for 100 bullets...

You can still find odd lots of the 3556 bullets on GB, but not with any regularity...And the big dealers show the 2900 box as Out Of Stock...

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

You aren't disagreeing with me. If you do the math, NATO spec ammo has about 20% more momentum than the original DWM loading, whereas the momentum of WWB is approximately its equal.

Mike:

I've been looking, for thirty years, in original period German materials, from the 1920s through 1950s, and have never found a hotter load, in 123 grain configuration, than the 1,076 fps. load discussed above.

I believe the existance of the famous "German hotter load", needed to properly function a 9 mm Luger, is nothing more than a constantly repeated myth, with no basis in verifiable fact whatsoever, and a very distructive one at that!

Yes, armor piercing "hotter loads" were made for the MP-38 and MP-40, with much lighter bullets and of iron core construction for better performance, but these were restricted for pistol usage (most, if not all of them, having steel lacered cases, etc.).

If any of our members can provide me with verifiabe German source documentation to prove otherwise, I'd really like to get a copy of it.

As to modern NATO spec. ammo, I value my Lugers too much as to ruin them, over time, by shooting such loads, as these are, indeed, +P loads.


Sieger