1906 Navy Question

[Big Norm]

I was just examining a 1906 Navy (6 inch) 1st issue altered and I was reminded a question that has puzzled me for a long time. It initially looks like a standard 1906 Navy Luger, all matching with matching mag. On the outside everything looks like standard markings. But the cartridge extractor has Russian markings (according to Reese and Walter) and not Bulgarian. Walter says that the crossed rifles of Russian guns were probably added by the exporters and not at the factory since the crossed rifles do not have bayonets on known Russian Lugers. All the books only mention 4 inch Lugers but this is a 6 inch Navy. The chamber is bare Both safety markings are German and the toggle is DWM. The serial number is three digit (no small cap) which is appropriate for the Russian contracts according to Reese. Is this a Russian contract gun?

Big Norm

Sir,


It is with interest that I have read your message.

In response to it I can only presume that it is a heterogenous mismatching extractor which was installed at some stage maybe as a repair.

There is no reference of any Navy Russian in any book.


Features of 1906 Russian are:

- short frame with cyrillic safety marking (like Bulgarian but different positionning

- Russian inscribed extractor

- grip safety

- Mosin Nagant crossed rifles

- 3 digit serial (max quantity presumed to be around 1000 units) although there is no trace of these sales by DWM being part of an official government contract.


I would by the way be interested to purchase your Russian type extractor to complete my 1906 Russian Luger which had as a reverse exemple a "Geladen" extractor installed.


Best regards,


Alain Capel

France

[John Sabato]

Nice to have another new member from Europe.


Please take the time to fill out a short profile to introduce yourself to the rest of us...


Come back often and share your Luger knowledge with us...


regards,


John Sabato

[Big Norm]

Isn't it amazing how easily messages can be quickly sent around the world via the internet and how far reaching this forum really is. Alain and I have corresponded regarding a possible exchange of extractors in less than a day without ever standing in a long line at the post office even once.


For discussion of this forum, does the 1906 Navy Luger have a serial number on its extractor? I have a number of them and none of them have one on the top. Could there be one elsewhere? I have not yet disassembled one to see if there is one elsewhere on the extractor.


Walter in his book suggests that not all Russian contract Lugers had the Mosin Nagant crossed rifles on them. The missing bayonets suggest that this might have been added later by unknown sources.


Alain says that there is no record that the Russians contracted for navy Lugers. But that does not preclude the possibility that individuals in Russia might have bought navy Lugers for themselves. Relationships between Russia and Germany were cordial before WW1. A three digit serial number without small caps would be appropriate for the period.


Known Russian contract Lugers had short frames but my 1906 has the appropriate long frame. My question here is, is there a difference between the two frames in the breech block? Logically, I think not. But logic is not fact.


I think that Alain is correct in his analysis that this is a careless mismatch somewhere along the way. Known Russian contracts do not have miliary inspection marks on the right side of the frame and mine does. I don't think that individual or official contracts in Russia would buy a Luger with German military inspection marks.


If there is a mismatch of the extractor but if there is a matching serial number of it, then this might be another example of the practical Germans using up excess parts from a failed Russian contract. But first, I have to see if there is supposed to be a serial number on the extractor in the first place. My brass pin punch recently broke so I can not find out for myself until I find another.

Big Norm

Hello John,


Thanks for your welcome message.

I have for some time very much appreciated the Lugerforum site and read the messages with much interest.


It is an honor and privillege to be part of this community and to share this collecting passion with other members, that way we all benefit from the wisdom of more advanced collectors.


We can only wish this group of fellow collectors to grow and through these valuable exchanges of knowledge make this fascinating area of technical and historical research deeper studied and ever more documented.


Kind regards


Alain

Norman,


Would just like to correct my mention of Bulgarian and Russian Lugers being identical.


The cyrillic safety marking inscription in itself is identical on all makes:

1906 Russian

1900/1906/1908 Bulgarian

but the positionning differs on the 1908 Bulgarian on which it is stamped in the lower position.

It appears that only the 1906 Russian and Bulgarian have identical frames (short; no stock lug) and markings. It is presumed that the Russian 1906's were made using frames fr

om the Bulgarian contract, but without proofing.


Best regards,


Alain

[Big Norm]

Alain,


you are correct. But in John Walters book "The Luger Book" page 239, he mentioned that 'there was no difference at all between Russian and Bulgarian until the former was modernized in the 1920's. Thus when the Parabellums were supplied, the marks on Russian and Bulgarian guns would have been identical.'.


I was surprised by all of this. I have a friend from Germany who I tried to get to interpret some 1940 German geneology papers for me and she could not do it because she said that it was "old" German. I also have friends in Norway who are complaining because Norway is changing their language and money to a "new" Norwegian. I know that this is off track. But how does a country suddenly change its language?


I am sorry that I took this discussion off track. If anybody wants to they can maybe Email me an answer if one is possible.

Big Norm

Big Norm,

I do not think that the question of language is so far off base.

If I remember correctly until somewhere between WW-1 & WW-2 There were several dialects of German spoken which created much confusion and demanded a standardization of, the official German language to replace possibly three or more dialects that had troubled the scientific world for quite a long time.

The differences between dialects resulted in totally confusing the field of international patents and scientific papers and was done with extreme pain to many closely concerned.

This can also account for some variation in the conversion of "Luger" documents and records made prior to and after the change.

I first became aware of this while searching one of my Patents that had some German related research and patent background that almost lost me a patent on a wind turbine.

Perhaps some of our German Contributors can fill us in on the effect of the language changes in greater depth.

What Say, Give Us Your Input, We Need Help Here !!!

ViggoG

Dok,

Am I correct in assuming that you have spent some time in Germany.

And are you familiar with what has taken place along this line.

If so, Join in and give us your slant on the subject.

ViggoG

Norm,


Russian and Bulgarian are languages which are close but not similar. They both belong to the familly of Slavic languages.

The change of alphabet that you refer to was indeed made in the soviet union after 1917 by the bolcheviks which believed in mediocratizing the language to educate illiterate workers and peasants destined to become the ruling class.

Even if Bulgarian, Russian, Ukrainian, Serb, etc.. use similar (not exactly same)alphabet the words are different and when they sound close they are often spelled differently.

In the IXth century two Greek monks (Cyril & Methodhius)created a "Russian" language by giving a Greek derived alphabet to people who did not have one.

They created new letters to match sounds that were not pronounced in the greek language.

Similarly knowing French I can easilly partly understand Spanish and Italian spoken or written.


http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Track/7635/alphabet.html


http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/6490/language/ezik.html

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/6490/language/alphabet.html


Kind regards,


Alain


P.S. : Sorry for John Walters but he is wrong. All the details are in the links above.

[Dok]

Yes I did spend some time in Germany, but not at the time of the "Old German" referred to in the above thread. The "Old German" like "Old English" was prevalent in the Middle Ages.


There are different dialects in every language, and German is no exception, greetings differ in various parts of the country, Guten Tag in one part and Gross Gott in another, both convey the same meaning. We have the same thing, "Good Day" and "Howdy Y'All". And language is always changing, it changes daily, with each new word it changes, and then when politics enters into it, it can change radically and swiftly.


Fractur was the "Offical" German typestyle for hundreds of years, until Hitler came to power, then it was abolished, because it was too "Jewish". We as collectors can only be thankful we don't have hundreds of years of language changes to wade through.


Dok

[Big Norm]

What a very interesting discussion. All because I am doing a little research regarding a Russian Luger. But I also had a birthday recently and my friends in Norway sent me a CD of Norwegian folk songs. I could not understand a word of them. So I started listening to the rythem of the language. I distictly picked up some French, German and Slavic sounds as well as some languages that I could not place. But my friends assured me that it was all Norwegian.


I can understand dialect differences based on proximity to another countries borders. I was born and raised in Detroit, Michigan and I am sure that I have a little Canadian in my language. Aye! Northern Michigan has a lot more of a Canadian sound than Southern Michigan. After talking to my German friend, I realized that there always has been a Northern and a Southern German dialect. And now that the Berlin wall has fallen, there is a third dialect.


But there is a difference between a dialect and a language. The Russians changed their alphabet and well as their language. So much so that the Russians could no longer read Bulgarian and visa versa. I guess that the simular thing could be said regarding the Irish and maybe the Welsh languages. I now can understand the legal and business implications for standardization of a language. But it had to be very confusing for the people of these countries at the time of its happening.


Thank you one and all for this interesting and informative discussion. I am now going to try to copy it to my word processor program for further study. History is great stuff and now I understand why my German friend could not read 'old' German written in the 1939-40's. My genealogy documents were probably written by an old Catholic priest in occupied Danzig who probably had not converted to the 'new' German and maybe had a dialect problem.

Big Norm

hi guys. i will tell something about the german language. if you speak it like it is written without any accent it is called : "Hochdeutsch" . but if you believe it or not, every town in germany has its own dialect, its called "Plattdeutsch". it is sometimes impossible for me as german, to understand people fast talking in their townlanguage. then we have also different dialects from country to country. so farer the country is away, so otherwise is the language. i think, that we have more than 50 accents here in germany.

but the serial-subletters are actual letters, which we use today in handwriting so like the are on every luger. the blockletters are also used today. only the gotic letters (like S/42) are not more used today since ww II. and there was the script "Altdeutsch". we don't have it since ww II. but i learned it from some old people, it is very difficult but very interesting. you can mail me any text and i try to translate it. dieter from good old germany

Dieter,

THANKS A REAL BUNCH!!. I sure hope I got that Subject Line right!

Your prompt responce has vindicated me.

I was trying to get this across without fully understanding the full extent of the problem myself.

Your explanation seems to have fully covered the matter, And probably explains how anyone not fully knowledgeable of this could commit many errors in trying to follow the various ducuments that were generated as the manufacturing of these Beautiful Weapons moved from place to place in a war torn environment.

Thanks again for helping to clear the air on this matter.

Speaking for the Forum.

Danke, Danke, Danke.

ViggoG

[Marvin]

Dieter,


Don't feel bad about all the different dialects of German, we have the same problem in the US. I live in the upstate part of South Carolina and traveling approx. 200 miles to the coast, and the dialect changes. Some of the people in the lower area are difficult for me to understand sometimes. When you go from the South to the North, the dialect changes. The folks in the North talk a lot faster than the folks in the South.


I think this is a universal problem in most countries with dialect changes. Also, wording phrases in one part of the US is much different in other parts.


Marvin

[Dok]