Reproduction Snail Drum - progress

[DonVoigt]

GT and I have written at various times over the last year about getting the Numrich reproduction luger snail drum or trommel magazine to work.

Few, if any, work out of the box when received.

After much trial, error, re-trial, modification and hard work and patience in general, GT has achieved a working magazine with his up front modifications to an as-received(from Numrich) drum.

He and I sent the drum I bought last spring/summer back and forth about 4 times, each time zeroing in on the problem areas.

Yesterday I received a fresh off the GT line, re-worked Numrich drum, and I'm happy to say it worked first time without a hitch!

I'll let GT comment on as many of the details as he wants.

But at the range today, a 32 round mag "dump" went without a hitch!

You can tell a "GT" re-worked mag by the marking shown below.

These drums are pretty much exact copies of the 2nd type and work as the original, they are not serial numbered nor maker marked, and are of a little lighter gage steel.

In order for a drum to function well, not only does the drum have to be up to snuff, but so does the pistol. If the pistol is not reliable -100%- with the 8 round magazines- it will not be reliable with the drum mag.

Ammo is also important, both the loading(115g Winchester White box is reliable), but the OAL can't be too long either.

Here is what the drum and its marking look like.

And firing 32 rounds from a luger without reloading is really a cool experience!

[G.T.]

Hi to all! Don pretty much has described where we are currently at in a nutshell! But, what little I have to add is as following....
At this point, I have G.T. revised the few customers drums I had in for repair, and have not yet received any range test reports, although, during bench testing, some have tried ammo OTHER than WW 115 ball target / range ammo, and so far, it simply won't work?... And to be truthful, we don't know why?.... All we can really track is OAL, and we feel that it has a lot to do with reliable drum function.. As well as reliable luger function...
I have sent the first five G.T. marked revised drums back to Numrich, and will follow with 10 more at the end of this next week! Followed by approx. 35 more end of May.... When we hit our stride we would like to be cranking out 50 G.T. Revised drums a month, but this might be hard to hit... just too many things that have to be done... Anyway, Don will be posting a picture and short description of the Drum loader assist strut so that you can see what it looks like and maybe how it functions as well....That's how its rolling here.... Best to all, til....lat'r....GT...

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by G.T.

When we hit our stride we would like to be cranking out 50 G.T. Revised drums a month...

Wow! Does Numrich really have that many 'on-hand'???

It all sounds really cool, but I've never seen a drum except in pictures...Do you have a pic of one installed, so those of us who've never seen one can get an idea of its relative size???

[G.T.]

Hi Rich, yes, it would seem there are a lot of them to revise?...I am on a single drum to drum agreement, but my welding and black oxide refinishing sources are set up to do fifty at one time for efficiency, and also an attractive and all important qty. price break? Going to be interesting to see if I can deliver?.......best to all, til...lat'r....GT....

[Curss]

Awesome work! Its always exciting to see projects like this pan out!

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by G.T.

Hi Rich, yes, it would seem there are a lot of them to revise?

Gerry, is Numrich selling these in two different listings??? With your revision, and without???

This is the only listing I could find -

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/ad/980980.htm

Luger P-08 Snail Drum Set

The snail drum is undoubtedly the most hard-to-find accessory for the Luger P-08 pistol, as well as the most expensive. Original snail drums typically sell for a minimum of $1,000.00 or more in fairly poor condition. We are now offering a brand new snail drum set, which features an exact copy of the original Type II 32 round 9mm snail drum with blued finish and period markings. The set includes a 32 round 9mm snail drum, loading tool (necessary when loading the 9mm rounds), and an English reprint of the original 1917 German instructional manual. CLICK HERE TO READ A SPECIAL MESSAGE REGARDING THESE SNAIL DRUMS Note: The snail drums are not sold individually.

Snail Drum Magazine, 9mm, 32 Round & Loading Tool Set Can not be shipped to DC, NJ, MA (NY, MD, CA, CO, CT ,HI Restrictions apply )

Our Price: $399.95

[DonVoigt]

sheepherder,

I don't think Numrich has offered these yet, I expect that will take some testing on their part, and then a while to change their offerings. They won't likely be at the same $399 price, would expect significantly higher, JMHO.

I will get the requested pictures for you today and post them here.

[G.T.]

Hi Rich, Don is correct in that they will offer the revised drum under some new add campaign, so it is easily recognizable as a "GT Revised," or, "GT Edition," as soon as I can supply enough product for them to market..... I would hope maybe a small rush, and then a continued maintenance restocking pace, as fast as I can produce units? I don't know if they will continue to sell the "un-revised" drum??.. although I would suspect not as it is just a wasted exercise in expensive mailing back and forth? Other than the fact they (un-revised drum) probably won't work, they will break almost immediately as well!
The GT acceptance stamp in a circle mark will ONLY go on the 100% revised drums!!! That I'm pretty sure of, as no one in their right mind would try to do this in conjunction with what Don and I have already done???....
Anyway, this has been a lot of work, (and fun as well!) and hopefully it will result in a "bunch" of usable drums out there for the shooting enthusiast! More to come.... best to all, and thanks for the interest in following the thread and progress of this quest!.... Best to all, til...lat'r...GT...

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Wow! Does Numrich really have that many 'on-hand'???

It all sounds really cool, but I've never seen a drum except in pictures...Do you have a pic of one installed, so those of us who've never seen one can get an idea of its relative size???

Found a picture for you.

[Eugen]

Wow, what an exciting accessory. Hats off to GT and those assisting on this project.This is on my wish list!

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by kurusu

Found a picture for you.

Thanks for the pic!

I was interested to read in SAOTW that the 1918 Bergman MP181 also used this drum magazine.

[DonVoigt]

Here are some more pictures of the drum installed, being loaded using the support strut invented by
GT, and of the support strut itself.

The drum takes a tremendous pressure when loading against the approx. 10 lb main spring, and if used long enough would wear out the mag notch or crack at the junction of the straight magazine part where it transitions to the drum. The loading support strut is adjustable to accomodate variances in drum dimensions. I tried it on my one original Bing drum and had to move the support block about 1/8" and it fit perfectly. There is one modification to the loader, which comprises replacing the pivot bolt with a longer one with a rounded stop nut for a connecting point for the strut, it is visible in one of the pictures, sorry it is a little fuzzy, long exposure and hand held the piece.

It appears the Germans did not worry about this in WWI, as they had hundreds of thousands of drums! And - as I said before the original was more robust, using heaver gage steel and no doubt better welding technique.

So today, the support strut prevents a problem developing, rather than solving a ready problem.

Loaded the new drum for the third time tonight, with 124gr S&B ball; will test fire tomorrow, but the loading was smoother just in these 3 or four times. I expect it to continue to smooth up.

I'll take it apart after tomorrows session, clean and re-lube, while inspecting for any sharp edgest that might need smoothing up for even better performance.

Here are some selected pictures.

[G.T.]

Many thanks to Don for the excellent pictures showing the loading assist strut in use!........ Just a few little points that show in the photos so I can maybe explain a little bit about what they are, and why they are there?... In the pictures of the modified loading tool its self, you can also see two additional blackened flat washers. I installed them to tighten up the loader to improve the loading experience, by stiffening up the tool when installed and levered... It helps direct the loading energy, and is just more controllable under stress...
Also, the little black plastic block isn't just any plastic, it is Delrin, I think a Polyoxymethylene plastic that is stronger and more ridged than Nylon, a polyamide plastic.... Machinists love it as it machines about like aluminum for accuracy and sharp tooling cuts it like butter! But, it is expensive, especially in most suitable sizes?.... But perfect for my application on these loading assist tools... Also, the little knob at the top doesn't turn, I just haven't found anything better for right now although I'm looking, as the knob are an added expense as well!... Back to the old money versus time equation!........ Once you get familiar with what has to happen, it is a "snap" to use both literally and figuratively... And, as Don pointed out, its primary function is to minimize damage that might occur over time?... It compensates for things we cannot change, but improves the loading experience in an overall fashion in many ways! Thanks to Don, for his help, and thanks to all who have taken an interest in this thread!.... best to you all, til...lat'r....GT.....

[cirelaw]

G.T. Congrads! Its certainly a marked improvement on the old way alone!

[Greg B.]

G.T. you mentioned in one of your posts that you don't know why your reworked drum magazines won't work with anything but Win. White Box. In the current Handloader magazine Terry Wieland has articles about Luger handloading and truncated cone bullets. My 1937 Mauser which is picky about everything worked fine with this bullet shape. Good luck.

Greg B.

[Mac Cat]

Very Cool, Don !

[Edward Tinker]

I think this would be nice in my carbine

GT, are you going to offer the loader? I am sorry, it was too much for me to read through everything tonight, as I am tired

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Greg B.

G.T. you mentioned in one of your posts that you don't know why your reworked drum magazines won't work with anything but Win. White Box. In the current Handloader magazine Terry Wieland has articles about Luger handloading and truncated cone bullets. My 1937 Mauser which is picky about everything worked fine with this bullet shape. Good luck.

Greg B.

GT may have said that in the past, or maybe said that WWB works best or maybe even reliably well. It does help to eliminate the ammo variable when trying any new magazine/pistol combo.

I've fired three x 32 rounds of S & B 124 g fmj this week without any issue.

I have also fired federal, off brand, and surplus canadian ammo from 1945 in my drum all 115g fmg of course. Your results may differ.

The key to getting the drum to work is a pistol that is 100% reliable with the 8 round magazines and which ever ammo you choose.

Ammo that is too long won't work well in a drum, nor an 8 round mag.

If the pistol is not 100% with a straight mag, a drum will only magnify any problems.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

I think this would be nice in my carbine

GT, are you going to offer the loader? I am sorry, it was too much for me to read through everything tonight, as I am tired

Ed,
the drum and loader come as a "set" from Numrich.

The strut is a GT offering.

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Ed,
the drum and loader come as a "set" from Numrich.

The strut is a GT offering.

loader - strut, same thing

okay, not, but I was referring to the strut thingy