Two H.P. marked Lugers - Page 2

Ron Smith · 06-10-2005, 10:19 AM

Hey Russ, Sorry, I have to work this weekend. And will be doing a family thing Sunday. I get every other weekend off. This retirement thing isn't working out quite like I planned it. Eventually we will connect, but the timing has just been wrong. Are you still "playing house" in Albany?

I will try to get in touch with you soon, so we can hook-up and terrorize some of those uppity rats. My wife has finally started to recover somewhat. So I'm ready to get out of town and blow off some stress. I'm warming up my Sako .243. If I can get them in the crosshairs, they're toast.

Ron

Edward Tinker · 06-10-2005, 10:43 AM

It is, if you come over to the house, I will buy a case!

Ron, glad to hear she is doing better.

Understand the every-other weekend thing, my wife says, NO more socializing! We have things to do!

The she says, oh, we need to go visit Ellie and Jerry, and what about that friend up in Boulder...

Rod WMG · 06-11-2005, 03:54 PM

Hey, Ron, thanks for updating us on your wife. I'm very pleased to hear she's doing better.

Tundra · 08-15-2005, 07:07 PM

WOW, A lot of very helpful information. I just inhereted H. P. 308. from my father. It has many similarities with those in your article, except I have not yet noticed any overstamps. Now if I can only find the magazine for it somewhere out there.

- Jim

Tundra · 08-15-2005, 11:16 PM

I think I've figured it out now...

Dwight Gruber · 08-15-2005, 11:39 PM

Jim,

Thanks very much for the good selection of photographs. The stock lug grind and front strap unit marks follow the convention of H.P. 495. I'm interested to note that the front of the frame seems to be faced off in the same manner.

Regarding the odd letters stamped under the receiver and on the frame under the grip plates, these are commonly known as Workers' Marks, internal DWM production inspection marks. All letters (except A), some numbers, and various cryptic symbols can be found stamped in various hidden, internal surfaces. Their meanings are undocumented and obscure.

--Dwight

Don M · 08-16-2005, 10:36 AM

Jim,

Just realized you'd jumped to this thread. Disregard question in other thread about sear and mag safeties --- it doesn't have them. Interesting.

Did your dad say anything about where and how he acquired this pistol? The only clue we currently have about the identity of these marks is from information about where and from whom one of the pistols was captured. Additional information about yours may be very useful.

Tundra · 08-16-2005, 05:44 PM

H.P. 308. was purchased in a small gun shop in NC for $600. I am contacting the shop owner to try and learn more (and to try to find it's magazine).

- Jim

Don M · 08-16-2005, 09:40 PM

Jim,

Could you post a good photo of the top of the gun in the toggle area? Yours would be the only one of these without a sear safety. There is none evident in the left side photo but the top photo may show if there was once one that has been removed. Thanks.

George Anderson · 08-17-2005, 12:21 PM

I think that the path to knowing what the "H.P." means will found by discovery of who captured these pistols. Names and units of the G.I.s or capture papers will shed more light on their German origin than anything else.

In Don's posting above it appears that both H.P.487 and H.P.503 were captured along with numbered holsters and mags in Bingen am Rhein. I believe that Bingen a/R was a part of Hesse prior to 1945. That being the case the marking may well indicate Hessian Police.

Dwight Gruber · 08-17-2005, 12:38 PM

George,

Note that Luger H.P.503. was taken mismatched in Holster H.P.487. Boyoboy, if they were two different captures from Bingen there'd certainly be a case.

You are thinking along Don's lines here, and with my suspicions as well.

--Dwight

Don M · 08-17-2005, 06:06 PM

Dwight,

What ever happened to our friend Margaret who has HP88? Did we scare her off? I sure would like to know if "daddy" left any evidence of the capture of that rig.

George,

See the second article mentioned in http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=11898 for my rationale for suspecting Hessische Polizei. Things have gotten a bit more complex since I wrote that but it's still my best guess.

Tundra · 08-17-2005, 11:25 PM

Don,

Now that I've looked for and found a photo of a sear safety... Hmmmm. It might have had one at one time... The cut-out on the side plate seems to confirm this. Yes?

Edward Tinker · 08-17-2005, 11:26 PM

yes, that is a dead giveaway.... let me look at your pictures again..

Don M · 08-18-2005, 12:03 PM

Jim,

Yes, the cutout on the side plate, the hole in the sear bar and the rivet hole in the receiver extension confirm that there was once a sear safety installed. That's at least one consistent feature of these pistols.

06-10-2005, 10:19 AM	#21
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hey Russ, Sorry, I have to work this weekend. And will be doing a family thing Sunday. I get every other weekend off. This retirement thing isn't working out quite like I planned it. Eventually we will connect, but the timing has just been wrong. Are you still "playing house" in Albany? I will try to get in touch with you soon, so we can hook-up and terrorize some of those uppity rats. My wife has finally started to recover somewhat. So I'm ready to get out of town and blow off some stress. I'm warming up my Sako .243. If I can get them in the crosshairs, they're toast. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

08-16-2005, 10:36 AM	#27
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Jim, Just realized you'd jumped to this thread. Disregard question in other thread about sear and mag safeties --- it doesn't have them. Interesting. Did your dad say anything about where and how he acquired this pistol? The only clue we currently have about the identity of these marks is from information about where and from whom one of the pistols was captured. Additional information about yours may be very useful. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

08-16-2005, 09:40 PM	#29
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Jim, Could you post a good photo of the top of the gun in the toggle area? Yours would be the only one of these without a sear safety. There is none evident in the left side photo but the top photo may show if there was once one that has been removed. Thanks. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

08-17-2005, 06:06 PM	#32
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Dwight, What ever happened to our friend Margaret who has HP88? Did we scare her off? I sure would like to know if "daddy" left any evidence of the capture of that rig. George, See the second article mentioned in http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=11898 for my rationale for suspecting Hessische Polizei. Things have gotten a bit more complex since I wrote that but it's still my best guess. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

08-17-2005, 11:26 PM	#34
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	yes, that is a dead giveaway.... let me look at your pictures again.. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-10-2005, 10:43 AM	#22
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	It is, if you come over to the house, I will buy a case! Ron, glad to hear she is doing better. Understand the every-other weekend thing, my wife says, NO more socializing! We have things to do! The she says, oh, we need to go visit Ellie and Jerry, and what about that friend up in Boulder...

06-11-2005, 03:54 PM	#23
Rod WMG User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Edge of Texas Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hey, Ron, thanks for updating us on your wife. I'm very pleased to hear she's doing better.

08-15-2005, 07:07 PM	#24
Tundra User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 15 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	WOW, A lot of very helpful information. I just inhereted H. P. 308. from my father. It has many similarities with those in your article, except I have not yet noticed any overstamps. Now if I can only find the magazine for it somewhere out there. - Jim

08-15-2005, 11:16 PM	#25
Tundra User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 15 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I think I've figured it out now...

08-15-2005, 11:39 PM	#26
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	Jim, Thanks very much for the good selection of photographs. The stock lug grind and front strap unit marks follow the convention of H.P. 495. I'm interested to note that the front of the frame seems to be faced off in the same manner. Regarding the odd letters stamped under the receiver and on the frame under the grip plates, these are commonly known as Workers' Marks, internal DWM production inspection marks. All letters (except A), some numbers, and various cryptic symbols can be found stamped in various hidden, internal surfaces. Their meanings are undocumented and obscure. --Dwight

08-16-2005, 05:44 PM	#28
Tundra User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 15 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	H.P. 308. was purchased in a small gun shop in NC for $600. I am contacting the shop owner to try and learn more (and to try to find it's magazine). - Jim

08-17-2005, 12:21 PM	#30
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	I think that the path to knowing what the "H.P." means will found by discovery of who captured these pistols. Names and units of the G.I.s or capture papers will shed more light on their German origin than anything else. In Don's posting above it appears that both H.P.487 and H.P.503 were captured along with numbered holsters and mags in Bingen am Rhein. I believe that Bingen a/R was a part of Hesse prior to 1945. That being the case the marking may well indicate Hessian Police.

08-17-2005, 12:38 PM	#31
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	George, Note that Luger H.P.503. was taken mismatched in Holster H.P.487. Boyoboy, if they were two different captures from Bingen there'd certainly be a case. You are thinking along Don's lines here, and with my suspicions as well. --Dwight

08-17-2005, 11:25 PM	#33
Tundra User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 15 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Don, Now that I've looked for and found a photo of a sear safety... Hmmmm. It might have had one at one time... The cut-out on the side plate seems to confirm this. Yes?

08-18-2005, 12:03 PM	#35
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Jim, Yes, the cutout on the side plate, the hole in the sear bar and the rivet hole in the receiver extension confirm that there was once a sear safety installed. That's at least one consistent feature of these pistols. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com