new luger owner needs help determining value of luger

hardspunned · 11-14-2012, 11:56 AM

I just inherited a .30 cal mauser luger. Serial #4444 with crown N symbol. 44 and proof symbol on all parts. Strawing appears bright and strong. Finish very good. Handle grip very good. Any help determining what I have would be greatly appreciated

Edward Tinker · 11-14-2012, 12:15 PM

welcome to the forum

Some pictures, especially of the serial number, it should have a suffix under the sn.

does it have the 'Mauser' logo or the scrolled DWM?

ed

mrerick · 11-14-2012, 03:27 PM

If a DWM it's likely an Alphabet Commercial from the 1920s.

If all matching and in good original condition pricing varies from $600 to $900.

Marc

hardspunned · 11-14-2012, 08:00 PM

photos of luger

Edward Tinker · 11-14-2012, 08:09 PM

Interesting DWM in a Mauser broom handle stock/holster

I think that is an "r" suffix, but can't tell

sheepherder · 11-14-2012, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardspunned

I just inherited a .30 cal mauser luger. Serial #4444...

Isn't that William Mattar's Luger???

hardspunned · 11-14-2012, 08:28 PM

I know very little about these items. the stock does not appear to fit luger. holster stamped C. HOLSTE & Co. MUNCHEN 1916.

Stock stamped S.A.LTD. 1944

Do I have three non related items here?

Any thoughts on the luger?

Thanks

DavidJayUden · 11-14-2012, 08:42 PM

The stock and harness are not related to the Luger in any way, but have some value by themselves. the Luger appears to be a nice Commercial, and Marc hit it dead on at $600-$900, probably toward the higher figure given the condition. Very nice!
dju

mrerick · 11-14-2012, 08:49 PM

Seeing the pictures, I agree with David's evaluation toward the higher end of the price range. Nice.

I think that the suffix is a "p" making the full serial number "4444p". That should put manufacturing date toward the end of 1923 or beginning of 1924.

The halos on the barrel serial number confirm that it is in it's original finish.

hardspunned · 11-14-2012, 09:02 PM

I was trying to educate myself here by reading the history of the luger. I thought I had read that military lugers were stamped around the piece with the last two digits of sn, as mine is. By commercial do you mean non military? What are the differences between commercial and non? Is it possible to research a sn to determine date of production? Hate to be so bothersome but you guys appear to be the experts. Thanks

mrerick · 11-14-2012, 09:13 PM

Your pistol was made for commercial sale. It's identifiable by several characteristics, including the location of serial numbers, the Crown/N commercial Nitro Proof marks and it's caliber.

It was not made for military issue.

You may also find the word "GERMANY" or "Made in GERMANY" stamped on it's frame, indicating it was made for export.

Marc

Edward Tinker · 11-14-2012, 09:13 PM

Yours is marked in the commercial manner, military is marked more obvious.

Yes, if we know the suffix, your year can be guessed.

hardspunned · 11-14-2012, 09:18 PM

Thanks for the info

glock30 · 11-14-2012, 09:54 PM

ONe interesting note no one mentioned. It is very likely that parts off of this DWM Commercial are from a Imperial era World War one Luger, most were. There might be proof marks on the right side of the reciever, you have no image of that, for DWM had millions of parts left over after WW1 and Guns and it wasn't feasible to make totally new Lugers for commercial sale, so they ground the date off the chamber (Which I cannot see yours) to remove the date and sold the guns in the USA commercial market, there were even grades of the weapon you would buy according to the distributor.

A military DWM has the entire serial stamped on the barrel, receiver,than the last two digits of the serial are than on the trigger, (Commercial have sideplate and trigger stamped different example Mil has the last two on the front of the sideplate, commercial it is not visible and on the bottom) sideplate, last two of serial than on all parts of the toggle, breechblock, mid and rear toggle link, striker, safety, main assembly pin, takedown, extractor, front sight, sear perhaps, and other parts, Commercials have less last two stampings and not on all the parts as military, for example, the striker is not stamped with last two etc. As I think Ed stated the Miliatary style of stamping and commercail this is what he means. I can give write you detailed info if you want. Commercials are mainly in 7.65 mm not in 9mm, but some were in 9mm, not many, This is also a long story, i can provide a ton of info on this also.

So you easily may have a 23 commercail with a miliatary receiver that was used in the Great War, and other parts meant for other military guns, but fitted and all original. The striker are usually devoid of oil grooves, though I have seen them, what year these came into play, I have no idea, some say not Until the late 30 Mausers, some say DWM did it, I am sure someone will interject with the truth. The Word Germany is usually on the frame in front, but can be on the receiver, it may or may not have the N nitro proof.And there is a lot of other stuff I can think of but it is late, Oh, and these have NO stock lug, other than that, this is a P-08 Luger and is the same thing as a miliatary German Luger, but in 7.65mm, only real significant difference. There is much more to write but..This is my '23 commercial

You can make this a 9mm by simply changing the barrel,(But you would not want to do that) some insist you need a different spring some say no, I don't think you do. Mine worked with the same spring many times. The 7.65mm Luger/Parabellum they also say is equal to the 9mm ballistically, but the 7.65 is a 93 grain bullet that generates 295 to 305 foot pounds of energy with a velocity of 1220, where as a 9mm is usually 360 to 400 foot pounds a 115 grain bullet to 124 and the velocity is around the same to 1,300. Hand Laods you can achieve 1,400 FPS out of the 93 grain .30 with 400 foot pounds max. The ballistic date may not be totally accurate, but...sorry for the typo's.

gill120 · 11-14-2012, 10:06 PM

The harness is WW1 Mauser but the stock is for Browning Hi Power.

MFC · 11-14-2012, 10:45 PM

Gene (Glock30), I disagree. 20DWM's (formerly 1923 Commercials) and Alphabet DWM Commercials (formerly 1920 Commercials) were newly made and don't show any signs of removed dates, military proofs or numbers stamped in military locations. WWII Lugers reworked for commercial sales or usually obvious and most still have their original serial #'s.

RichSr · 11-14-2012, 11:13 PM

Adding to MFC's corrections, the triggers of military and commercials are similarly marked, the "main assembly pin" was not serial numbered until the 30's, front sights ceased to be marked early( I believe the adjustable artillery sights were #, the "striker"(firing pin) was not grooved until the 30s and it was to relieve pressure from a pierced primer not for oil. Finally, if no stock lug is present it would be a 1908 commercial not a later one. Maybe a little too late to try to impart information.

mrerick · 11-15-2012, 10:16 AM

I have a DWM Alphabet commercial made within the "m" block approximately 30,000 prior to the one in this post.

It does have a stock lug, and left the factory equipped that way.

Marc

SteveM · 11-15-2012, 11:29 AM

The stock is for the Canadian Inglis Hi-Power. Does it say made in Canada anywhere?

11-14-2012, 11:56 AM	#1
hardspunned User Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 17 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	new luger owner needs help determining value of luger I just inherited a .30 cal mauser luger. Serial #4444 with crown N symbol. 44 and proof symbol on all parts. Strawing appears bright and strong. Finish very good. Handle grip very good. Any help determining what I have would be greatly appreciated

11-14-2012, 12:15 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	welcome to the forum Some pictures, especially of the serial number, it should have a suffix under the sn. does it have the 'Mauser' logo or the scrolled DWM? ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-14-2012, 03:27 PM	#3
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,907 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,108 Times in 1,509 Posts	If a DWM it's likely an Alphabet Commercial from the 1920s. If all matching and in good original condition pricing varies from $600 to $900. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

11-14-2012, 08:49 PM	#9
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,907 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,108 Times in 1,509 Posts	Seeing the pictures, I agree with David's evaluation toward the higher end of the price range. Nice. I think that the suffix is a "p" making the full serial number "4444p". That should put manufacturing date toward the end of 1923 or beginning of 1924. The halos on the barrel serial number confirm that it is in it's original finish. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war. Last edited by mrerick; 11-15-2012 at 10:14 AM. Reason: Remove incorrect reference to stock

11-14-2012, 09:13 PM	#11
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,907 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,108 Times in 1,509 Posts	Your pistol was made for commercial sale. It's identifiable by several characteristics, including the location of serial numbers, the Crown/N commercial Nitro Proof marks and it's caliber. It was not made for military issue. You may also find the word "GERMANY" or "Made in GERMANY" stamped on it's frame, indicating it was made for export. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

11-14-2012, 08:00 PM	#4
hardspunned User Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 17 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	photos of luger Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

11-14-2012, 08:09 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	Interesting DWM in a Mauser broom handle stock/holster I think that is an "r" suffix, but can't tell

11-14-2012, 08:28 PM	#7
hardspunned User Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 17 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I know very little about these items. the stock does not appear to fit luger. holster stamped C. HOLSTE & Co. MUNCHEN 1916. Stock stamped S.A.LTD. 1944 Do I have three non related items here? Any thoughts on the luger? Thanks

11-14-2012, 08:42 PM	#8
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	The stock and harness are not related to the Luger in any way, but have some value by themselves. the Luger appears to be a nice Commercial, and Marc hit it dead on at $600-$900, probably toward the higher figure given the condition. Very nice! dju

11-14-2012, 09:02 PM	#10
hardspunned User Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 17 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I was trying to educate myself here by reading the history of the luger. I thought I had read that military lugers were stamped around the piece with the last two digits of sn, as mine is. By commercial do you mean non military? What are the differences between commercial and non? Is it possible to research a sn to determine date of production? Hate to be so bothersome but you guys appear to be the experts. Thanks

11-14-2012, 09:18 PM	#13
hardspunned User Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 17 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks for the info

11-14-2012, 09:54 PM	#14
glock30 User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Obama LAND Posts: 206 Thanks: 18 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	ONe interesting note no one mentioned. It is very likely that parts off of this DWM Commercial are from a Imperial era World War one Luger, most were. There might be proof marks on the right side of the reciever, you have no image of that, for DWM had millions of parts left over after WW1 and Guns and it wasn't feasible to make totally new Lugers for commercial sale, so they ground the date off the chamber (Which I cannot see yours) to remove the date and sold the guns in the USA commercial market, there were even grades of the weapon you would buy according to the distributor. A military DWM has the entire serial stamped on the barrel, receiver,than the last two digits of the serial are than on the trigger, (Commercial have sideplate and trigger stamped different example Mil has the last two on the front of the sideplate, commercial it is not visible and on the bottom) sideplate, last two of serial than on all parts of the toggle, breechblock, mid and rear toggle link, striker, safety, main assembly pin, takedown, extractor, front sight, sear perhaps, and other parts, Commercials have less last two stampings and not on all the parts as military, for example, the striker is not stamped with last two etc. As I think Ed stated the Miliatary style of stamping and commercail this is what he means. I can give write you detailed info if you want. Commercials are mainly in 7.65 mm not in 9mm, but some were in 9mm, not many, This is also a long story, i can provide a ton of info on this also. So you easily may have a 23 commercail with a miliatary receiver that was used in the Great War, and other parts meant for other military guns, but fitted and all original. The striker are usually devoid of oil grooves, though I have seen them, what year these came into play, I have no idea, some say not Until the late 30 Mausers, some say DWM did it, I am sure someone will interject with the truth. The Word Germany is usually on the frame in front, but can be on the receiver, it may or may not have the N nitro proof.And there is a lot of other stuff I can think of but it is late, Oh, and these have NO stock lug, other than that, this is a P-08 Luger and is the same thing as a miliatary German Luger, but in 7.65mm, only real significant difference. There is much more to write but..This is my '23 commercial You can make this a 9mm by simply changing the barrel,(But you would not want to do that) some insist you need a different spring some say no, I don't think you do. Mine worked with the same spring many times. The 7.65mm Luger/Parabellum they also say is equal to the 9mm ballistically, but the 7.65 is a 93 grain bullet that generates 295 to 305 foot pounds of energy with a velocity of 1220, where as a 9mm is usually 360 to 400 foot pounds a 115 grain bullet to 124 and the velocity is around the same to 1,300. Hand Laods you can achieve 1,400 FPS out of the 93 grain .30 with 400 foot pounds max. The ballistic date may not be totally accurate, but...sorry for the typo's. Last edited by glock30; 11-14-2012 at 10:20 PM. Reason: constant idea's

11-14-2012, 10:06 PM	#15
gill120 User Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 95 Thanks: 1 Thanked 18 Times in 11 Posts	The harness is WW1 Mauser but the stock is for Browning Hi Power.

11-14-2012, 10:45 PM	#16
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Gene (Glock30), I disagree. 20DWM's (formerly 1923 Commercials) and Alphabet DWM Commercials (formerly 1920 Commercials) were newly made and don't show any signs of removed dates, military proofs or numbers stamped in military locations. WWII Lugers reworked for commercial sales or usually obvious and most still have their original serial #'s. __________________ Mike C.

11-14-2012, 11:13 PM	#17
RichSr User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: West Texas Posts: 128 Thanks: 153 Thanked 54 Times in 36 Posts	Adding to MFC's corrections, the triggers of military and commercials are similarly marked, the "main assembly pin" was not serial numbered until the 30's, front sights ceased to be marked early( I believe the adjustable artillery sights were #, the "striker"(firing pin) was not grooved until the 30s and it was to relieve pressure from a pierced primer not for oil. Finally, if no stock lug is present it would be a 1908 commercial not a later one. Maybe a little too late to try to impart information. __________________ Rich

11-15-2012, 10:16 AM	#18
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,907 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,108 Times in 1,509 Posts	I have a DWM Alphabet commercial made within the "m" block approximately 30,000 prior to the one in this post. It does have a stock lug, and left the factory equipped that way. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

11-15-2012, 11:29 AM	#19
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	The stock is for the Canadian Inglis Hi-Power. Does it say made in Canada anywhere?