Please Help Identify Unit Marking on 1916 DWM

[bdome]

Just purchased my first Luger. What intrigued me about this one over the others I had to choose from was the unit number stamped on the grip strap. Also of interest were the notches filed below the unit numbers into the grip strap. Could this have been the owner's personal ''scorecard'' ?? Any opinions would be appreciated. Since this is my first, I'm unsure of the going price on these but I'd appreciate input as to whether $1k was too much. Bore was bright with good lands. There is blueing wear on all the high points and the back strap is almost bare with a patina. Thanks again on helping out this ''newbie''.

[alanint]

Welcome to the forum, Bruce! In order for anybody to give an informed opinion about the price you paid; is the gun ALL matching, inside and out? All visible numbers appear ok, but please look in the website here for all the parts which must be numbered for this particular year.
Thanks

[Don M]

Bruce, you have a fascinating and enigmatic Luger that I would pay $1K for any day of the year! (You must temper this with the fact that I am mainly interested in German police markings over the condition of the gun.) Prior to yours, only eleven examples of this marking were known to me. Unfortunately, the meaning of the marking remains unknown. These markings are discussed in History Writ in Steel, pp. 322-324). Since this is your first Luger, you probably don't have a copy of the book but you can get some information from item 5 on this web page: http://www.historywritinsteel.com/New_Insights.html.

The notches on the gun are unique and may offer some clue as to the meaning of the marking but at the moment, I can't figure out what they mean. I know there are folks who will jump to the conclusion that these are from a concentration camp (Konzentrationslager) and the notches indicate the number of prisoners shot but I am not ready to endorse that.

I would greatly appreciate having your permission to use your photo of the grip strap in a future publication. If you agree and send me your name to the email address below, I will certainly credit you.

Thanks for posting this unique example. It has my curiosity about these markings aroused again!

[Ron Smith]

I believe this mark has been posted before. It's kind of a toss-up. It could be police, or it could be a "Stab", a military staff marking, but as Don says. We haven't figured it out yet. Pretty cool though...

[Don M]

Ron, I'm virtually certain it is police. Every Luger I have recorded with this marking (including its two other variations) has or, in this case had, a sear safety.

[Ron Smith]

Don,

Good! Then I don't have to worry about it.

I wasn't awear of the others having the sear safety. At least I don't recall...which isn't unusual these days.

Ron

[bdome]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I have done some further checking and it appears that other than the magazine and grip panels, the pistol has matching numbers. There is an ''S'' stamped into the back side of the left grip but nothing else. Any further info on the background of the grip strap markings would be greatly appreciated as it becomes available.
Thanks again guys.




I'm a little confused about the sear safety. I was shown samples of Lugers with what was called the sear safety modification that were done for police use.. My pistol doesn't have the additional little bar attached. I've attached a picture with the area highlighted that I am talking about. I may have misunderstood the discussion but again, my pistol doesn't have the addition that the other pistols had. I assumed that this pistol was an army rework.

[Don M]

Bruce, this pistol once had a sear safety that has been removed. In addition, the side plate has been replaced and stamped with a matching serial number. The clue is the hole in the receiver flange just above where the main safety contacts it. This is where the rivet attached the sear safety spring. I had to lighten your photo to show this clearly.

There is the remote possibility that the gun was drilled for a sear safety that was never installed. One way to tell is to remove the side plate and see if there is a vertical hole drilled in the sear bar. If there is, the sear safety was once installed and the side plate is a replacement. If it were the original, it would have a slot cut out of the top.

[bdome]

You are correct Don. When I removed the side cover I could clearly see the hole which was drilled in the sear bar. Thank you for the clarification. I've read that it was a requirement for the sear safety to be installed on pistols used by the police. Was it commonplace to remove these sear safeties once they were removed from police service? I'm just curious why it may have been modified but then removed. Thanks again.

[Don M]

Bruce, it is very rare to find a Luger that had a sear safety removed during its service life. I have observed only two situations in which this might be the case. In some instances, a police Luger apparently was transferred to the German military and the safety was removed. This post is one example: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=23910. Police Lugers captured by the Russians also had their sear safeties removed.

I don't think your gun was transferred to the military. No other Luger with this marking has had its sear safety removed. I would expect that the whole unit or a significant part of its inventory would have been transferred.

I see no sign that this gun was captured by the Russians. There is evidence presented in HWIS to support the idea that these Lugers were captured in Bavaria by US troops.

While almost anything is possible, I think it likely that the sear safety was removed and the side plate replaced some time after WWII. This also raises the possibility that the notches were filed at a later date.

[alanint]

I purchased a Russian capture Luger in the 1980s that still had a sear safety in place. I don't recall the serial but it was mostly matching, including sideplate upper receiver and barrel. The gun had numerous "x"s in the usual places

[Don M]

Originally Posted by alanint

I purchased a Russian capture Luger in the 1980s that still had a sear safety in place. I don't recall the serial but it was mostly matching, including sideplate upper receiver and barrel. The gun had numerous "x"s in the usual places

This is a good example of why there are no absolutes in this game! Thanks for pointing this out.

[bdome]

Thanks for your help Don. I'm affraid I may have been bitten by the bug!

[Vlim]

Concentration camps were usually abbreviated with 'Kz'.

I guess the most obvious explanation would be a Landjägerei marking? This again corresponds with the police modifications.

[Don M]

Originally Posted by bdome

I'm affraid I may have been bitten by the bug!

Uh-oh! The only known antidotes are bankruptcy and death and bankruptcy is not always effective.

Originally Posted by Vlim

I guess the most obvious explanation would be a Landjägerei marking?

Gerben, I have thought of this but can't put it all together. I don't understand the K or the reverse J variations.

[jamese]

Don,

In your research are all of the examples "1920" Government marked as well ?

I know the one example I sent you is, and so is the one pictured here

Jim

[Vlim]

This again would point towards a Landjägerei marking. The Royal Prussian Landesgendarmerie was originally a military organization, but was 'transferred' to a non-combat organization after 1918, with a name change to 'Landjägerei' in june, 1920.

This could also explain the 'K' as 'Königliche' (Royal). Since the name change took place in 1920, it is not surprising to find it on 1920 property marked pistols.

In old German spelling you sometimes find the use of 'Landiägerei' rather than 'Landjägerei'. In turn, the letter 'i' was substituted by a reversed letter 'j'.

[Don M]

Jim, all of the Lugers known to me with a form of this marking are listed in Table 20-6 of HWIS, the web page listed up-thread and the pistol disclosed in this thread - a total of ten. All are Imperial-era military Lugers with 1920 government property stamps and all have or had sear safeties.

[Don M]

Originally Posted by Vlim

This again would point towards a Landjägerei marking. The Royal Prussian Landesgendarmerie was originally a military organization, but was 'transferred' to a non-combat organization after 1918, with a name change to 'Landjägerei' in june, 1920.

This could also explain the 'K' as 'Königliche' (Royal). Since the name change took place in 1920, it is not surprising to find it on 1920 property marked pistols.

In old German spelling you sometimes find the use of 'Landiägerei' rather than 'Landjägerei'. In turn, the letter 'i' was substituted by a reversed letter 'j'.

Gerben,

This is the first time I have heard that a reversed J was used in place of an I. I have not been able to find this in my research of Old German. Could you provide a reference to or example of this?

Even considering the possibility of these substitutions, I very much doubt that these markings are from the Prussian Landjägerei for several reasons:

* The Imperial-era Prussian Gendarmerie used the initials L.G. (Landes-Gendarmerie) for property marking (HWIS Chapter 13). I seriously doubt that they would have introduced a K after November 1918.

* A great deal of evidence strongly indicates that the newly reorganized and renamed Landjägerei did not mark any of their weapons until the 1932 marking orders were issued.

* The Prussian Landjägerei apparently was equipped with LP08s until these were replaced with newly manufactured P08s in 1929. The few Imperial-era P08s I have observed with Landjägerei markings appear to have been issued after the 1929 rearming to units that did not receive P08s until after the withdrawl of French occupation forces in June 1930. By that time, the supply of new weapons apparently had been distributed.

* The Prussian Landjägerei appears to have been the most conformist of the German police in following the 1932 instructions. These markings don't conform to the instructions at all. Even if these markings had been applied earlier, it is almost certain they would have been modified after 1932.

I am not ruling out the possibility that Lj. and its variations represents Landjäger or some form of that word. However, I cannot identify a candidate organization. As discussed in HWIS, I believe it to have been a rather small unit with only about 150 men. This makes identification more difficult.

[Vlim]

Don, the i - 'reverse' j substitution is pretty much common knowledge, so it is not described in that many sources (after all, who would describe the alphabet in English, for example?).

Capital J and Capital I are hardly distinguishable in old German, and as the old text shows, the i and j were regularly substituted. I may have some examples amongst Mauser's own handwriting, have to look into that.

It would be fun to see a logical alternative for the 'Lj.' abbreviation, though. I really can't think of anything else that would make sense, unless the 'j' was actually meant to be an 'i' and we are looking at an 'Li' abbreviation instead...

Don't you just love old German

But how about the abbreviations used by the Royal Württemberger Landjägerei? They were quite small and there are some examples of the use of K.L.K. and L.K. markings (Königliches Landjägereikorps / Landjägereikorps). This was a relatively small corps which was called Landjägerei before and during WW1.