Looking For Info About Luger Parts (Pic Heavy)

Mutt · 06-29-2012, 05:06 PM

I have a couple of luger parts and want to find out what I can about them. Any info would be appreciated. The first item is a simple would stock for a luger. The second is a snail drum magazine. Trying to find out what I can about them. Would also be interested in what they might be worth.

Here is the stock ..........

Here is the magazine ............

Thanks for taking the time to take a look.

Edward Tinker · 06-29-2012, 05:15 PM

The stock is not an original luger stock, and I am not sure it would fit, not be legal to put onto a luger.

The snail drum (trommel) looks good, can you get some close ups of the markings, the serial number on it and any other markings?

Ed

Mutt · 06-29-2012, 05:19 PM

I haven't been able to find any markings on either side. The spring only goes down as far as the straight section.

Mutt · 06-29-2012, 05:29 PM

Here are a couple more closer pics.

Mutt · 06-29-2012, 05:30 PM

Any idea what the stock might go to???

George Anderson · 06-29-2012, 05:42 PM

The stock was made to go with a Japanese toy Luger in the 1960/70 period. The magazine is also not original.

Bluff Lake 36 · 06-29-2012, 06:00 PM

The stock was made to fit a toy luger. The Toy Artillery Luger I have is only marked with SMG 03-79. Both made in Japan.
The trommel mag is also a repro.
Hope this helps

Mutt · 06-29-2012, 09:15 PM

Will the stock for the Toy luger fit a standard luger??

Vlim · 06-30-2012, 06:07 AM

Yes, it will fit.

Like with all luger/stock combos a bit of fitting may be required. The bad news is that the stock iron is not hardened and will start to deform quite rapidly during use.

It actually shoots quite comfortably, and makes for a very accurate combination. (It's legal over here

).

Ron Wood · 06-30-2012, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

Yes, it will fit.

Like with all luger/stock combos a bit of fitting may be required. The bad news is that the stock iron is not hardened and will start to deform quite rapidly during use.

It actually shoots quite comfortably, and makes for a very accurate combination. (It's legal over here

).

But it isn't legal on this side of the puddle!

mrerick · 06-30-2012, 09:58 AM

Steve, Welcome to the forum.

Sorry for the news you've received, but it's important to be informed.

As Ron mentions, it is not legal to own a Luger and a non-appropriate (original or reproduction) stock. The ATF classifies this combination as a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) and this is considered a NFA Class III firearm which requires special registration and tax stamp transfers.

Artillery Lugers with Artillery Stocks (original or reproduction) and Navy Lugers with Navy Stocks (original or reproduction) and a few rarer combinations are specifically exempted from this through a curio and relic list published by the ATF.

Unfortunately the combination of this stock attached to any Luger would be a SBR. Some speculate that the possession of both objects constitutes "intent" just like owning full auto parts that would fit a AK47 you also owned.

Marc

Lugerdoc · 06-30-2012, 10:39 AM

Your stock would be legal on a luger with a barrel over 16" and the repro snail drum would require extentive modification to even fit into a real luger. TH

Olle · 06-30-2012, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

Artillery Lugers with Artillery Stocks (original or reproduction) and Navy Lugers with Navy Stocks (original or reproduction) and a few rarer combinations are specifically exempted from this through a curio and relic list published by the ATF.

Unfortunately the combination of this stock attached to any Luger would be a SBR. Some speculate that the possession of both objects constitutes "intent" just like owning full auto parts that would fit a AK47 you also owned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lugerdoc

Your stock would be legal on a luger with a barrel over 16" and the repro snail drum would require extentive modification to even fit into a real luger. TH

ATF works in mysterious ways... Are you saying that only the original design of these stocks (repro or original) are allowed on these pistols, or are stocks allowed period? I guess that a 16" barrel could make it a rifle, but doesn't it have to be registered as a rifle as well? Reason I'm asking that is that this seems to be an issue when you buy an AR-15 receiver, as two identical receivers can be either rifle or pistol.

alanint · 06-30-2012, 11:37 AM

The only place the "Rifle-Pistol" receiver disctinction is made is with the AR family or weapons. (ATF tried to do it with the Thompson Center family of weapons, but the court shot them down). If an AR lower receiver is sold as a pistol, it cannot be later made into a rifle.
Stupid, yes, but its the goverment.

ithacaartist · 06-30-2012, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olle

ATF works in mysterious ways... Are you saying that only the original design of these stocks (repro or original) are allowed on these pistols, or are stocks allowed period? I guess that a 16" barrel could make it a rifle, but doesn't it have to be registered as a rifle as well?

To best recollection, arties can be used with artie stocks, navies with navy; original or honest reproductions are OK. 16" might make it a rifle (I had thought it was 18"? A letter discussing the guidelines for this are in the technical info link here on site.

I'm in NY State and no "registration" of rifles is needed. If you're buying one new here, your dealer will do the background check and collect his transfer fee; same if buying here from out of state. A C&R license here is useless except for its power to achieve dealer discounts from suppliers--prob. still worth the $30 if you buy much at all.

Strictly speaking, a short-barreled rifle is own-able. Your state laws must not restrict it. It must have been transferred to you by a holder of the separate federal license that allows these special transfers. And you must pay a $200 one time tax per weapon.

As far as I know, homemade retrofit stocks would not be legal on a regular P.08 with standard military or commercial length barrel. I think the Luger Carbines are also grandfathered in on the ATF list, and maybe the early "Ideal Stock" originals.

This bogey keeps popping up, every once in a while.

Olle · 07-01-2012, 01:44 AM

Sooo.... Seems like ATF has set themselves up for some serious confusion here. Just imagine if an eagle eyed ATF agent, expert in Artillery and Navy Lugers, says that your repro stock is so poorly made that it doesn't count as a repro.

The pistol/rifle dilemma seems to be a non-issue with the Lugers, but the AR-15s are just another example of ATF's confusing rules. The registration I'm talking about is not tied to the owner and I'm not sure how it really works, but I believe it's the manufacturer who designates lowers as pistols or rifles and then reports production numbers and serial numbers to ATF.

Now how in the world would you know if it's a pistol or a rifle when you pick up a stripped used lower at the gun show? And how would the cops know if they check out your AR-15? And most importantly: Why in the world would anybody ever need to know? Seems like the only thing ATF accomplished was to build a trap into the serial numbers: You buy a lower that happens to be a pistol and build a carbine on it, and you're breaking the law.

alanint · 07-01-2012, 07:06 AM

That pretty much sizes it up. And sadly, it is up to you to verify and know that you are in compliance. Most manufacturers will stamp "AR Pistol" on a lower but not all do.

To add to the confusion that is out there, take this hipothetical case:
It is possible to create a short barrel rifle out of an AR and legally register it as such. But say you then want to sell the rifle to someone who does not want to pay the transfer. You then write to ATF and have it taken off the registry as an SBR, add a 16"+ barrel and can then legally sell the rifle. But the SBR manufacturer's data you had to engrave into it would indicate to a knowledable LEO that it is an SBR, although with a legal length barrel installed. If you don't have the ATF letter with you, showing it was taken off the registry, you might be charged with illegally possessing an SBR, (and the previous owner could be charged with illegally transferring an SBR) although for all intents and purposes the gun is NOT an SBR.
In the case of both the AR and AK variants, simply drilling a hole in the right place makes each a machinegun, regarless of whether you own conversion parts or not.
If you own a registered sear MP5, (which is about 95% of the ones out there) and you want to be able to move that F/A trigger pack over to your HK93, (HK33) you could only take that trigger pack off your MP5 if it is also registered as an SBR!
Hell, technically, you are in violation of owning an illegal SBR the second you remove the registered trigger pack from an MP5 for cleaning, UNLESS the gun is ALSO a registered SBR!!
Confused yet?....I gotta million of them...!!

Olle · 07-01-2012, 10:20 AM

Can anyone (or maybe that should be any Class 3 FFL?) add the SBR designation? I thought this was done by the manufacturer "at birth" and could not be changed.

In any case, what we see here is a case where the law is way too difficult to follow even for those who try. It would be even more difficult to enforce, as it would require proof of the lower's designation. If you add intent to the mix, it will be so darn complicated that even the most hardened ATF agent would realize that it's beyond ridiculous. The most difficult thing in a case like that would probably be to educate and convince the jury that this is actually how the law is written:

"So this stripped lower is a pistol, this one is a short barreled rifle and that one is a long barreled rifle?"
"Yep, just read this 24 page investigation and you will see that the serial numbers say so!"
"But they look exactly identical...?"
"Nope, they have different numbers!"
"So how would you know if you buy one at a show, or on a local ad?"
"That's not our problem, is it?"

mrerick · 07-01-2012, 11:00 AM

It is interesting how statutory law making and agency rule making can make a mockery of common law. It is generally done through this kind of complexity.

So... start with your common law rights...
Add statutory regulation that establishes an agency with deep bureaucracy...
that establishes complex rules...
that are observed by the law enforcement agencies...
who suspect a violation of law...
that the suspect gets to interpret and disprove... (using rather expensive legal resources)
with all this complex mess unraveled in court...
and interpreted by a jury...

It is a very effective deterrent that took a couple of hundred years to evolve in our system in the USA.

The layered local, county, state, federal statutory laws are quite complex to begin with. Add the ATF regulations (which come in a rather thick packet with even more on an enclosed CD) and the regular changes reflected online.

Bumping up against the NFA rules is, I think, intentionally deep and complex. One of my gun club members has a legally registered silenced .308 rifle. You can't imagine the complexity when he moved from another state here several years ago. Just about every layer of government got into the fray, and it took a couple of years to sort out.

Of interest, I just bought an AR lower locally at one of our gun shows to complement an Adams Arms piston upper (M4 carbine configuration). The lower is on the books as an "other" rather than rifle or pistol. I wonder what happens if it were to morph into different things with different uppers...

Marc

ithacaartist · 07-02-2012, 03:25 PM

Back to the accessories depicted... I think that the trommel was made for the Japanese We reproductions. Those were all metal construction with full mechanical function. They fire a PfC round, whereby the cartridge is knocked forward by the firing pin, to encounter a pin in the chamber of the bbl, which sets off the charge in the NOSE of the special cartridge. This charge is sufficient to fully cycle the action, and shoot some sparks and smoke through the vent in the barrel. Since the PFC cartridge is the same size and shape as a 9x19 FMJ, 9mm Luger ammo would fit into their mags, though--as Tom points out--not necessarily the mag into the mag well of a real Luger. Drum mags, even from replica guns, are a bit on the pricey side. A 10 round (NY legal) for my Thompson is priced at almost $200.

06-29-2012, 05:06 PM	#1
Mutt User Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Looking For Info About Luger Parts (Pic Heavy) I have a couple of luger parts and want to find out what I can about them. Any info would be appreciated. The first item is a simple would stock for a luger. The second is a snail drum magazine. Trying to find out what I can about them. Would also be interested in what they might be worth. Here is the stock .......... Here is the magazine ............ Thanks for taking the time to take a look.

06-29-2012, 05:15 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	The stock is not an original luger stock, and I am not sure it would fit, not be legal to put onto a luger. The snail drum (trommel) looks good, can you get some close ups of the markings, the serial number on it and any other markings? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-29-2012, 06:00 PM	#7
Bluff Lake 36 User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Northern Wisconsin Posts: 205 Thanks: 0 Thanked 79 Times in 39 Posts	Toy Luger The stock was made to fit a toy luger. The Toy Artillery Luger I have is only marked with SMG 03-79. Both made in Japan. The trommel mag is also a repro. Hope this helps Attached Thumbnails

06-30-2012, 06:07 AM	#9
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Yes, it will fit. Like with all luger/stock combos a bit of fitting may be required. The bad news is that the stock iron is not hardened and will start to deform quite rapidly during use. It actually shoots quite comfortably, and makes for a very accurate combination. (It's legal over here ). Attached Thumbnails

06-30-2012, 09:58 AM	#11
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Steve, Welcome to the forum. Sorry for the news you've received, but it's important to be informed. As Ron mentions, it is not legal to own a Luger and a non-appropriate (original or reproduction) stock. The ATF classifies this combination as a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) and this is considered a NFA Class III firearm which requires special registration and tax stamp transfers. Artillery Lugers with Artillery Stocks (original or reproduction) and Navy Lugers with Navy Stocks (original or reproduction) and a few rarer combinations are specifically exempted from this through a curio and relic list published by the ATF. Unfortunately the combination of this stock attached to any Luger would be a SBR. Some speculate that the possession of both objects constitutes "intent" just like owning full auto parts that would fit a AK47 you also owned. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

06-29-2012, 05:19 PM	#3
Mutt User Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I haven't been able to find any markings on either side. The spring only goes down as far as the straight section.

06-29-2012, 05:29 PM	#4
Mutt User Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here are a couple more closer pics.

06-29-2012, 05:30 PM	#5
Mutt User Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Any idea what the stock might go to???

06-29-2012, 05:42 PM	#6
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	The stock was made to go with a Japanese toy Luger in the 1960/70 period. The magazine is also not original.

06-29-2012, 09:15 PM	#8
Mutt User Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Will the stock for the Toy luger fit a standard luger??

06-30-2012, 10:39 AM	#12
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Your stock would be legal on a luger with a barrel over 16" and the repro snail drum would require extentive modification to even fit into a real luger. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

06-30-2012, 11:37 AM	#14
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The only place the "Rifle-Pistol" receiver disctinction is made is with the AR family or weapons. (ATF tried to do it with the Thompson Center family of weapons, but the court shot them down). If an AR lower receiver is sold as a pistol, it cannot be later made into a rifle. Stupid, yes, but its the goverment.

07-01-2012, 01:44 AM	#16
Olle User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 159 Thanked 663 Times in 318 Posts	Sooo.... Seems like ATF has set themselves up for some serious confusion here. Just imagine if an eagle eyed ATF agent, expert in Artillery and Navy Lugers, says that your repro stock is so poorly made that it doesn't count as a repro. The pistol/rifle dilemma seems to be a non-issue with the Lugers, but the AR-15s are just another example of ATF's confusing rules. The registration I'm talking about is not tied to the owner and I'm not sure how it really works, but I believe it's the manufacturer who designates lowers as pistols or rifles and then reports production numbers and serial numbers to ATF. Now how in the world would you know if it's a pistol or a rifle when you pick up a stripped used lower at the gun show? And how would the cops know if they check out your AR-15? And most importantly: Why in the world would anybody ever need to know? Seems like the only thing ATF accomplished was to build a trap into the serial numbers: You buy a lower that happens to be a pistol and build a carbine on it, and you're breaking the law.

07-01-2012, 07:06 AM	#17
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	That pretty much sizes it up. And sadly, it is up to you to verify and know that you are in compliance. Most manufacturers will stamp "AR Pistol" on a lower but not all do. To add to the confusion that is out there, take this hipothetical case: It is possible to create a short barrel rifle out of an AR and legally register it as such. But say you then want to sell the rifle to someone who does not want to pay the transfer. You then write to ATF and have it taken off the registry as an SBR, add a 16"+ barrel and can then legally sell the rifle. But the SBR manufacturer's data you had to engrave into it would indicate to a knowledable LEO that it is an SBR, although with a legal length barrel installed. If you don't have the ATF letter with you, showing it was taken off the registry, you might be charged with illegally possessing an SBR, (and the previous owner could be charged with illegally transferring an SBR) although for all intents and purposes the gun is NOT an SBR. In the case of both the AR and AK variants, simply drilling a hole in the right place makes each a machinegun, regarless of whether you own conversion parts or not. If you own a registered sear MP5, (which is about 95% of the ones out there) and you want to be able to move that F/A trigger pack over to your HK93, (HK33) you could only take that trigger pack off your MP5 if it is also registered as an SBR! Hell, technically, you are in violation of owning an illegal SBR the second you remove the registered trigger pack from an MP5 for cleaning, UNLESS the gun is ALSO a registered SBR!! Confused yet?....I gotta million of them...!!

07-01-2012, 10:20 AM	#18
Olle User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 159 Thanked 663 Times in 318 Posts	Can anyone (or maybe that should be any Class 3 FFL?) add the SBR designation? I thought this was done by the manufacturer "at birth" and could not be changed. In any case, what we see here is a case where the law is way too difficult to follow even for those who try. It would be even more difficult to enforce, as it would require proof of the lower's designation. If you add intent to the mix, it will be so darn complicated that even the most hardened ATF agent would realize that it's beyond ridiculous. The most difficult thing in a case like that would probably be to educate and convince the jury that this is actually how the law is written: "So this stripped lower is a pistol, this one is a short barreled rifle and that one is a long barreled rifle?" "Yep, just read this 24 page investigation and you will see that the serial numbers say so!" "But they look exactly identical...?" "Nope, they have different numbers!" "So how would you know if you buy one at a show, or on a local ad?" "That's not our problem, is it?"

07-01-2012, 11:00 AM	#19
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	It is interesting how statutory law making and agency rule making can make a mockery of common law. It is generally done through this kind of complexity. So... start with your common law rights... Add statutory regulation that establishes an agency with deep bureaucracy... that establishes complex rules... that are observed by the law enforcement agencies... who suspect a violation of law... that the suspect gets to interpret and disprove... (using rather expensive legal resources) with all this complex mess unraveled in court... and interpreted by a jury... It is a very effective deterrent that took a couple of hundred years to evolve in our system in the USA. The layered local, county, state, federal statutory laws are quite complex to begin with. Add the ATF regulations (which come in a rather thick packet with even more on an enclosed CD) and the regular changes reflected online. Bumping up against the NFA rules is, I think, intentionally deep and complex. One of my gun club members has a legally registered silenced .308 rifle. You can't imagine the complexity when he moved from another state here several years ago. Just about every layer of government got into the fray, and it took a couple of years to sort out. Of interest, I just bought an AR lower locally at one of our gun shows to complement an Adams Arms piston upper (M4 carbine configuration). The lower is on the books as an "other" rather than rifle or pistol. I wonder what happens if it were to morph into different things with different uppers... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

07-02-2012, 03:25 PM	#20
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,282 Thanks: 7,007 Thanked 2,476 Times in 1,319 Posts	Back to the accessories depicted... I think that the trommel was made for the Japanese We reproductions. Those were all metal construction with full mechanical function. They fire a PfC round, whereby the cartridge is knocked forward by the firing pin, to encounter a pin in the chamber of the bbl, which sets off the charge in the NOSE of the special cartridge. This charge is sufficient to fully cycle the action, and shoot some sparks and smoke through the vent in the barrel. Since the PFC cartridge is the same size and shape as a 9x19 FMJ, 9mm Luger ammo would fit into their mags, though--as Tom points out--not necessarily the mag into the mag well of a real Luger. Drum mags, even from replica guns, are a bit on the pricey side. A 10 round (NY legal) for my Thompson is priced at almost $200.