B W Grips

Don H. · 07-17-2004, 08:00 PM

I just purchased a set of Black Widow grips. I thought they looked a bit too glossy and I started to wonder if they were repo's or not. I compared them to another set I have from my 42 byf they were exactly the same except the shine. I went to clean them up because I thought they might have a little oil on them that was making them shine. When I ran hot water on them I noticed I could bend them easy. I tried the same thing to my other grips and they didn't bend. These are plastic and not bakelite. Just thought I would post this here,maybe this will help tell the repo's from the originals. Don

Frank · 07-17-2004, 09:48 PM

Don, do the plastic have threaded holes on the back side and do the threads match the grip screw threads?

Most after market grips are hard plastic and not as shiny as the original.

Don H. · 07-17-2004, 11:13 PM

Frank, They do have threaded holes in the back. These are the nicest repo's I've seen. I will try and post a picture of them. I showed them to Ted Green and he wasn't sure either. I hate seeing repo's look this good.

Don H. · 07-17-2004, 11:15 PM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=2252550216 Here it is.

Frank · 07-18-2004, 09:16 AM

Don, I'll bet you can return them!!! I certainly would for that price! Good Luck.

G.T. · 07-18-2004, 10:26 AM

Hi Don! Yes, those fooled me also... I was in the hunt for awhile.. they sure look good.. I think Frank is probably right, the fellow has great feedback, I'm sure he would listen to your concerns! best of luck to you, til...lat'r...GT

Don H. · 07-18-2004, 10:51 AM

I'm sure he will take them back also. I wouldn't mind keeping them but not for the price I paid. G.T. have you seen these up close? Don

Pete Ebbink · 07-18-2004, 10:52 AM

Hi Don H.,

I find it difficult to believe that the folks at FGS would have made a mistake with these and called them original when they were not. If yours are not original, then there are some repros out there that are even fooling very knowledgable folks...

You might want to look at some of the detailed photos in the following past message threads and compare these photos to your grips. When I saw your pair on the e-Bay auction I, too, thought they sure looked original.

1. In the "Luger Accessories" section, take a look at a discussion started on 10-12-2003 by Jack Lawman.

2. In the "P-08 Military Luger" section, take a look at a discussion started on 1-23-2003 by ToggleTop.

3. In the "P-08 Military Luger" section, take a look at a discussion started on 4-26-2004 by Nomadr.

Let us know what you see when you compare yours with these other BW grips...

I would be especially curious to know if the grips you have have the unique "swirling" machine patterns on the "islands" on the back side of the grip...as shown in some of the previous BW photos posted in these other discussions...

Here is a photo from one of the discussion :

And another :

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/bwgripsinside_copy1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/bwgripsinside_copy1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

G.T. · 07-18-2004, 11:50 AM

Hi Don! No, I just saw them on ebay, same as you... I didn't even study them that close until your forum post because the feedback was so steller, I thought they would most certainly be authentic... even in looking at them as close as I can from the photo, I can't see any fatal flaws.. they still look good to me?? But, phonolic thermoset resin parts probably shouldn't deform under hot tap water... ?? This is where I don't have any answers... I will be real interested to know what your further research turn up! Best to all! til...lat'r...GT

Don H. · 07-18-2004, 01:52 PM

I feel sure to say these are repo's. They look as if they wrer molded from a set of originals. There is swirling machine patterns on the islands but they aren't sharp like my other set that I know are correct. The best way that I can describe it is if you took an original set and spray painted them with a thin coat of gloss black paint where you can still see the machine marks. I'm going to try and post some pictures.

Don H. · 07-18-2004, 02:29 PM

I have the pictures but I can't figure out how to get them on the forum. I could email to someone that knows how. Don

Thor · 07-18-2004, 02:42 PM

You can send them to me and I will post them for you!

Thor · 07-18-2004, 11:23 PM

Here are Don's grips.
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips002.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips002.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips004.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips004.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips010.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips010.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips013.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips013.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips015.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips015.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips027.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips027.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips029.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips029.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips030.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips030.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

tracyp · 07-19-2004, 01:24 AM

Don,

Have you tried putting them on a Luger. How's the fit?

They had a second set that just sold a couple of days ago. They went for $179. I think they used the same pictures.

Tracy

Frank · 07-19-2004, 09:48 AM

Don, Tracy is correct!! The one thing I have noticed is that any of the "fakes" I have seen didn't fit well, especially at the bottom where the grip meets the frame. There is almost always a gap. Original grips still fit well after 60 or so years.

Looking at your photos, they do appear to be too shiny, but it could be the flash and any liquid (oil) you may have applied.

Don H. · 07-19-2004, 11:29 AM

Tracy, I did see the others that sold on ebay and I already emailed the buyer but haven't heard back yet. If they came from the same mold they should identical in every way. I did try these on a Luger and they fit tight at the bottom. Also if you look at the pictures 2,3,and 4 notice the small indentation on the end of the islands. It looks like a contraction from cooling. I'm sure these are fake and I started this post to help others to tell the difference. I don't know where these are coming from but they are the best fakes I've seen.

Thor · 07-19-2004, 11:40 AM

I had thought since they are different materials perhaps different density? Would they weigh the same on an ounce scale?

John Sabato · 07-19-2004, 11:56 AM

Does anyone else have a pair of these suspected fake grips that may have come from the same source? If we can get some comparison photos posted in this thread, we should be able to see IDENTICAL marks on the inside.

The outsides "look" good to me, but the extreme shininess is disturbing... and my initial impression is the same as above... that these have been recently molded from a "genuine" set. Let all who can please contribute to this thread, do so, till we can try and resolve this interesting question.

I would consider one possibility... that there may have been some kind of late war formula change in the type of phenolic or plastic being used due to critical war shortages, but that is simply a theory... I also have say that I have not seen any specimens this shiny in the past, and that is what makes them suspect to me...

I hope Luke Smithwick is listening... I would love to have his input on these photographs...

Don H. · 07-19-2004, 12:12 PM

John I do agree with you 100% in that these were molded from an original set. Look at the left grip just above the grip screw on the border. there is some small scratches that are from the originals. I would be willing to guess these same scratches are on the other pair that sold on ebay also. If the buyer will contact me I can find out and post what I find out. Jerry Burney also has a nice pair of repo. Krieghoff grips and I think they might be from the same maker.

tracyp · 07-19-2004, 12:13 PM

Don,

When I saw the second pair on e-bay, I e-mailed the seller asking "Why are these up for sale again? They were sold a couple of weeks ago for $177"

His response was "I am parting out an old collection and had more than one set"

From your pictures, these do not look the same as the pictures on e-bay. It's my opinion that the one you received are not the ones pictured on e-bay.

Tracy

07-17-2004, 08:00 PM	#1
Don H. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Albuquerque,NM. Posts: 96 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 2 Posts	B W Grips I just purchased a set of Black Widow grips. I thought they looked a bit too glossy and I started to wonder if they were repo's or not. I compared them to another set I have from my 42 byf they were exactly the same except the shine. I went to clean them up because I thought they might have a little oil on them that was making them shine. When I ran hot water on them I noticed I could bend them easy. I tried the same thing to my other grips and they didn't bend. These are plastic and not bakelite. Just thought I would post this here,maybe this will help tell the repo's from the originals. Don

07-18-2004, 02:42 PM	#12
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	You can send them to me and I will post them for you! __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

07-18-2004, 11:23 PM	#13
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Here are Don's grips. <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips002.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips002.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips004.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips004.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips010.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips010.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips013.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips013.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips015.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips015.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips027.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips027.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips029.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips029.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips030.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BWgrips030.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

07-19-2004, 11:40 AM	#17
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	I had thought since they are different materials perhaps different density? Would they weigh the same on an ounce scale? __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

07-19-2004, 11:56 AM	#18
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Does anyone else have a pair of these suspected fake grips that may have come from the same source? If we can get some comparison photos posted in this thread, we should be able to see IDENTICAL marks on the inside. The outsides "look" good to me, but the extreme shininess is disturbing... and my initial impression is the same as above... that these have been recently molded from a "genuine" set. Let all who can please contribute to this thread, do so, till we can try and resolve this interesting question. I would consider one possibility... that there may have been some kind of late war formula change in the type of phenolic or plastic being used due to critical war shortages, but that is simply a theory... I also have say that I have not seen any specimens this shiny in the past, and that is what makes them suspect to me... I hope Luke Smithwick is listening... I would love to have his input on these photographs... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-17-2004, 09:48 PM	#2
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Don, do the plastic have threaded holes on the back side and do the threads match the grip screw threads? Most after market grips are hard plastic and not as shiny as the original.

07-17-2004, 11:13 PM	#3
Don H. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Albuquerque,NM. Posts: 96 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 2 Posts	Frank, They do have threaded holes in the back. These are the nicest repo's I've seen. I will try and post a picture of them. I showed them to Ted Green and he wasn't sure either. I hate seeing repo's look this good.

07-17-2004, 11:15 PM	#4
Don H. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Albuquerque,NM. Posts: 96 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 2 Posts	http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=2252550216 Here it is.

07-18-2004, 09:16 AM	#5
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Don, I'll bet you can return them!!! I certainly would for that price! Good Luck.

07-18-2004, 10:26 AM	#6
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,485 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,581 Times in 989 Posts	Hi Don! Yes, those fooled me also... I was in the hunt for awhile.. they sure look good.. I think Frank is probably right, the fellow has great feedback, I'm sure he would listen to your concerns! best of luck to you, til...lat'r...GT

07-18-2004, 10:51 AM	#7
Don H. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Albuquerque,NM. Posts: 96 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 2 Posts	I'm sure he will take them back also. I wouldn't mind keeping them but not for the price I paid. G.T. have you seen these up close? Don

07-18-2004, 10:52 AM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Don H., I find it difficult to believe that the folks at FGS would have made a mistake with these and called them original when they were not. If yours are not original, then there are some repros out there that are even fooling very knowledgable folks... You might want to look at some of the detailed photos in the following past message threads and compare these photos to your grips. When I saw your pair on the e-Bay auction I, too, thought they sure looked original. 1. In the "Luger Accessories" section, take a look at a discussion started on 10-12-2003 by Jack Lawman. 2. In the "P-08 Military Luger" section, take a look at a discussion started on 1-23-2003 by ToggleTop. 3. In the "P-08 Military Luger" section, take a look at a discussion started on 4-26-2004 by Nomadr. Let us know what you see when you compare yours with these other BW grips... I would be especially curious to know if the grips you have have the unique "swirling" machine patterns on the "islands" on the back side of the grip...as shown in some of the previous BW photos posted in these other discussions... Here is a photo from one of the discussion : And another : <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/bwgripsinside_copy1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/bwgripsinside_copy1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-18-2004, 11:50 AM	#9
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,485 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,581 Times in 989 Posts	Hi Don! No, I just saw them on ebay, same as you... I didn't even study them that close until your forum post because the feedback was so steller, I thought they would most certainly be authentic... even in looking at them as close as I can from the photo, I can't see any fatal flaws.. they still look good to me?? But, phonolic thermoset resin parts probably shouldn't deform under hot tap water... ?? This is where I don't have any answers... I will be real interested to know what your further research turn up! Best to all! til...lat'r...GT

07-18-2004, 01:52 PM	#10
Don H. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Albuquerque,NM. Posts: 96 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 2 Posts	I feel sure to say these are repo's. They look as if they wrer molded from a set of originals. There is swirling machine patterns on the islands but they aren't sharp like my other set that I know are correct. The best way that I can describe it is if you took an original set and spray painted them with a thin coat of gloss black paint where you can still see the machine marks. I'm going to try and post some pictures.

07-18-2004, 02:29 PM	#11
Don H. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Albuquerque,NM. Posts: 96 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 2 Posts	I have the pictures but I can't figure out how to get them on the forum. I could email to someone that knows how. Don

07-19-2004, 01:24 AM	#14
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Don, Have you tried putting them on a Luger. How's the fit? They had a second set that just sold a couple of days ago. They went for $179. I think they used the same pictures. Tracy

07-19-2004, 09:48 AM	#15
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Don, Tracy is correct!! The one thing I have noticed is that any of the "fakes" I have seen didn't fit well, especially at the bottom where the grip meets the frame. There is almost always a gap. Original grips still fit well after 60 or so years. Looking at your photos, they do appear to be too shiny, but it could be the flash and any liquid (oil) you may have applied.

07-19-2004, 11:29 AM	#16
Don H. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Albuquerque,NM. Posts: 96 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 2 Posts	Tracy, I did see the others that sold on ebay and I already emailed the buyer but haven't heard back yet. If they came from the same mold they should identical in every way. I did try these on a Luger and they fit tight at the bottom. Also if you look at the pictures 2,3,and 4 notice the small indentation on the end of the islands. It looks like a contraction from cooling. I'm sure these are fake and I started this post to help others to tell the difference. I don't know where these are coming from but they are the best fakes I've seen.

07-19-2004, 12:12 PM	#19
Don H. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Albuquerque,NM. Posts: 96 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 2 Posts	John I do agree with you 100% in that these were molded from an original set. Look at the left grip just above the grip screw on the border. there is some small scratches that are from the originals. I would be willing to guess these same scratches are on the other pair that sold on ebay also. If the buyer will contact me I can find out and post what I find out. Jerry Burney also has a nice pair of repo. Krieghoff grips and I think they might be from the same maker.

07-19-2004, 12:13 PM	#20
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Don, When I saw the second pair on e-bay, I e-mailed the seller asking "Why are these up for sale again? They were sold a couple of weeks ago for $177" His response was "I am parting out an old collection and had more than one set" From your pictures, these do not look the same as the pictures on e-bay. It's my opinion that the one you received are not the ones pictured on e-bay. Tracy