whats wrong with these magazines?

Edward Tinker · 12-06-2012, 03:36 PM

ok, lets play, what in the world is wrong with these mags?

Those that instantly know, wait a day

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Luger-PAIR-o...item3a7c6c04a7

Vlim · 12-06-2012, 03:42 PM

Nice

(I'll remain quiet).

George Anderson · 12-06-2012, 05:15 PM

East German Haenel-Schmeisser mags with bogus Nazi bottums. I watch Revshops Ebay offers all the time and never see any bids on his stuff, The forums must be doing some good.

sheepherder · 12-06-2012, 05:30 PM

Spoil sport...

saab-bob · 12-06-2012, 05:38 PM

His asking prices also seem on the "optimistic" side.
Bob

mrerick · 12-06-2012, 05:39 PM

Of course his attempt at faking one of the WaffenAmt stamps must have gone wrong, because it's been further ground off the base...

2/1001 being a part number used post war during the DDR era.

I bought one of these from Sarco when they still had them. Nice running magazine at only $85.

Too bad these have been faked up.

Marc

George Anderson · 12-06-2012, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

Spoil sport...

Sorry, I didn't see Ed's request to wait a day. This Revshop crap just really gets my dander-up so I shot off too quickly.

He tried to screw me with one of his bogus LP08s some fifteen years ago.

sheepherder · 12-06-2012, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Anderson

He tried to screw me with one of his bogus LP08s some fifteen years ago.

Well, at least you don't bear a grudge...

lugerholsterrepair · 12-06-2012, 07:55 PM

Collecting Lugers and their accoutremon involve a small circle of Friends..You tend to remember the crooks...

lugersrkewl · 12-06-2012, 07:55 PM

thank you Ed , this is what new guys like me need ...

ithacaartist · 12-07-2012, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugersrkewl

thank you Ed , this is what new guys like me need ...

+1

Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it...

Thanks, Ed. I hadn't heard of this outfit/guy before, and appreciate the left-handed caveat!

What I noticed about the mags: Though my experience is limited, it seemed to me that the striations left by the extrusion process are deeper than original WWII versions. Is this, in fact, a clue? Also, the installation of the retaining pin in the bottom of one of them is quite sloppy--a shiny mis-strike with the press/center punch, and a deformed pin head. Would an original, unmessed-with mag look like this? The mag bottoms' texture looks like an uncirculated coin--little marks from bumping into their neighbors in a parts bag or bin, but no actual, honest wear. And both of them are in about the same condition, something I found odd. Aside from the retaining pin screw-up, they look just about identical other than the vastly different serial numbers.

Are any of my observations relevant?

D.P.

Edward Tinker · 12-07-2012, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

..

Are any of my observations relevant?

D.P.

I am sure they are, however, I admit, freely that I am not a 'exact' guy, it is a reason that Dwight and i wrote the book together, I am very good at gathering info, putting it together and Dwight is excellent at research and being very exact.

Obvious things on these mags:

1. The bases are (on original east german made) are darker aluminum, and likely more of a pot metal than the WW2 bases - Note that these have WW2 bases put on them....

2. The body style is excellent and was made on original tooling, I believe although some don't that Schmeisser themselves made these - if nothing else, then it was made on their tooling or expertise.

3. ALL of these magazines have the DDR marking of 2/1001 - instead of showing FXO, they used a code of 2/1001 - as soon as you see this, KNOW that the mag is east german, and with it, it is a great mag, great shooter and almost knew compared to WW1 and WW2 mags

alanint · 12-07-2012, 09:57 AM

[QUOTE=Edward Tinker;224566]

1. The bases are (on original east german made) are darker aluminum, and likely more of a pot metal than the WW2 bases - Note that these have WW2 bases put on them....

I would argue that the bases are not original at all. These are newly made aluminum castings. (Observe the sharp lines and pristine condition of both. Not a SINGLE ding in either base and the stamped serial numbers have raised edges. After 70 + years for BOTH mags to be in this condition? Really?).

Click on the magnifying glass, which allows you to closely examine the magazine base photo and all will become obvious.

A long time faker like you describe must own a handy, dandy set of fake dies that he can use over time as he injects the collector market by drips and drabs with these spurious magazines.

Edward Tinker · 12-07-2012, 10:07 AM

yes, you are correct, the eagle 63 immediately stuck out at me

Ron Wood · 12-07-2012, 10:36 AM

The serial numbers may appear stamped because they are so shiney they look like they have raised edges, but they are actually pantographed. I am not all that up on WWII magazines, but I don't believe the serial numbers were ever pantographed.

alanint · 12-07-2012, 12:21 PM

This would bear out Ed's opinion of this particular dealer. This is willful fakery and clearly an attempt to defraud the novice collector.

I'll put him on my "S" list.

mrerick · 12-07-2012, 12:37 PM

David,

One thing. The Haenel Schmeisser magazines (whether FXO or 2/1001 DDR era) were not extruded. They were formed and welded steel that was subsequently precision machined into their shape.

I still think that these may have been the best and most consistent Luger magazines. It's surprising that the technique hasn't been more widely used. Of course, stamped steel is cheaper to produce.

Marc

Arizona Slim · 12-07-2012, 12:58 PM

It's a shame there isn't a way to get the word out to prospective buyers/bidders on web sites like e-bay, crooks like this guy should be put out of business.

swampsavage · 12-07-2012, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

David,

One thing. The Haenel Schmeisser magazines (whether FXO or 2/1001 DDR era) were not extruded. They were formed and welded steel that was subsequently precision machined into their shape.

I still think that these may have been the best and most consistent Luger magazines. It's surprising that the technique hasn't been more widely used. Of course, stamped steel is cheaper to produce.

Marc

I agree completely. I have 2 of these and they perform as well on the range as my 2 Mec-Gars. Used them with my 1938 S/42 and my 1906 AE.

tharpo · 12-07-2012, 04:31 PM

Another problem with the magazine on the left is that a SE/63 stamp is not correct with a center pinned mag bottom.

Tom

12-06-2012, 03:36 PM	#1
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	whats wrong with these magazines? ok, lets play, what in the world is wrong with these mags? Those that instantly know, wait a day http://www.ebay.com/itm/Luger-PAIR-o...item3a7c6c04a7

12-06-2012, 05:15 PM	#3
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	East German Haenel-Schmeisser mags with bogus Nazi bottums. I watch Revshops Ebay offers all the time and never see any bids on his stuff, The forums must be doing some good. Last edited by lugerholsterrepair; 12-06-2012 at 07:57 PM.

12-06-2012, 05:30 PM	#4
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	Spoil sport... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

12-06-2012, 05:38 PM	#5
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	His asking prices also seem on the "optimistic" side. Bob __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"

12-06-2012, 05:39 PM	#6
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Of course his attempt at faking one of the WaffenAmt stamps must have gone wrong, because it's been further ground off the base... 2/1001 being a part number used post war during the DDR era. I bought one of these from Sarco when they still had them. Nice running magazine at only $85. Too bad these have been faked up. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war. Last edited by mrerick; 12-06-2012 at 06:35 PM. Reason: Oops... holding back for a day...

12-06-2012, 03:42 PM	#2
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Nice (I'll remain quiet).

12-06-2012, 07:55 PM	#9
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Collecting Lugers and their accoutremon involve a small circle of Friends..You tend to remember the crooks... __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-06-2012, 07:55 PM	#10
lugersrkewl Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ussr Posts: 425 Thanks: 198 Thanked 75 Times in 58 Posts	thank you Ed , this is what new guys like me need ...

12-07-2012, 09:57 AM	#13
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	[QUOTE=Edward Tinker;224566] 1. The bases are (on original east german made) are darker aluminum, and likely more of a pot metal than the WW2 bases - Note that these have WW2 bases put on them.... I would argue that the bases are not original at all. These are newly made aluminum castings. (Observe the sharp lines and pristine condition of both. Not a SINGLE ding in either base and the stamped serial numbers have raised edges. After 70 + years for BOTH mags to be in this condition? Really?). Click on the magnifying glass, which allows you to closely examine the magazine base photo and all will become obvious. A long time faker like you describe must own a handy, dandy set of fake dies that he can use over time as he injects the collector market by drips and drabs with these spurious magazines.

12-07-2012, 10:07 AM	#14
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	yes, you are correct, the eagle 63 immediately stuck out at me

12-07-2012, 10:36 AM	#15
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	The serial numbers may appear stamped because they are so shiney they look like they have raised edges, but they are actually pantographed. I am not all that up on WWII magazines, but I don't believe the serial numbers were ever pantographed. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction Last edited by Ron Wood; 12-07-2012 at 12:32 PM.

12-07-2012, 12:21 PM	#16
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	This would bear out Ed's opinion of this particular dealer. This is willful fakery and clearly an attempt to defraud the novice collector. I'll put him on my "S" list.

12-07-2012, 12:37 PM	#17
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	David, One thing. The Haenel Schmeisser magazines (whether FXO or 2/1001 DDR era) were not extruded. They were formed and welded steel that was subsequently precision machined into their shape. I still think that these may have been the best and most consistent Luger magazines. It's surprising that the technique hasn't been more widely used. Of course, stamped steel is cheaper to produce. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

12-07-2012, 12:58 PM	#18
Arizona Slim Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 706 Thanks: 1,026 Thanked 409 Times in 225 Posts	It's a shame there isn't a way to get the word out to prospective buyers/bidders on web sites like e-bay, crooks like this guy should be put out of business.

12-07-2012, 04:31 PM	#20
tharpo Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: West Coast, USA Posts: 536 Thanks: 116 Thanked 375 Times in 153 Posts	Another problem with the magazine on the left is that a SE/63 stamp is not correct with a center pinned mag bottom. Tom