Identifying a luger

castile · 08-12-2023, 09:52 AM

I was in a pawn shop yesterday. There was a lady who brought in a Luger to sell. I thought she was an employee and struck up a conversation with her on the Luger. It ended up I told the pawn shop once I found out she was a customer that if they bought it call me, and I told her if she did not sell it call me. She did not sell it to the pawn shop and is coming over today so I can make an offer on it.

So from what I saw maybe some here can help me out and put me in the right direction. It was a 7.62x25. It had a nice original bluing no high polish but just a nice blueing that had the right thinning on the high parts. No serial number on any of the parts, the only numbers I saw were on the frame front, and the underside of the barrel with the bore markings.

The top of the toggle was DWM. There were no proof marks or anything on the right side of the frame. It had the usual wood grips. The mag had either a wood or a red wood tone colored end cap with the last two serial numbers stamped in it. There was a Luger tool and I was short on time and did not look to see any marks on it. There was an oiler but I think it was for a K89 or rifle. It was the size of a pack of life savers with the palm and finger pull wings on it. Also had a wood drilled ammo holder with 100 rounds of 7.62x25. I did not check the head stamps. They had some kind of plug in the tip of the bullet. Dumb Dumb bullets?

I was thinking it was a 1920 unmarked. But there is not much to go on. Thanks for any help. BTW no date was stamped in the Luger top frame. Thanks for any help

Vlim · 08-12-2023, 12:25 PM

The caliber would be .30 Luger, not 7,62x25.

From your description it sounds like a 1920s 'alphabet' commercial pistol. They are not the most sought after ones, but can be found in nice shape as they were commercial exports to the US and not wartime issued guns.

Please correctly identify the caliber and the rounds before attempting to chamber / fire them.

castile · 08-12-2023, 12:43 PM

Thanks. I just remembered someone telling me they shoot the Tokorov rounds out of the 30 Luger. I never checked it out. I was never really interested in the 30 Luger guns. Good to know.

Mac Cat · 08-12-2023, 12:52 PM

A Tokarev round would not fit in the magazine or chamber and if it did, it would damage the gun.
What you are looking for is often called ".30 cal luger" or 7.65mm x 21mm
It's available in a lot of places on-line. PPU is a good brand you can trust.

These are old guns designed just when smokeless power was being introduced. They use a Target load with standard FMJ ball bullets. Avoid NATO, P+, and any other high powered cartridges.

It should have a full serial number and suffix under the barrel on the front of the frame.

They sell for about $1,200 - $1,800, depending on condition.

It is a commercial luger design and should be a good shooter, if the barrel has good rifling.

castile · 08-12-2023, 01:02 PM

Thanks Cat. I appreciate the help. Nice to know appx value. So I know what to tell her on value. I would only offer 800 then as it would be for me to sell not to collect. I have 4 third Reich Lugers in my collection.

castile · 08-12-2023, 11:16 PM

The lady left several guns with me to sell for her on GB. The Luger is indeed a Commercial Luger all matching with serial number and nitro ect. I think the mag is not original as it has a plastic follower. But strange has the two numbers of the serial stamped in the bottom. I have been busy going over GB sold prices so we could come up with values. I need help on this one and will post pictures in the next few days. Thanks. The Luger has the take down tool but its unmarked. Were the export Luger tools unmarked? I know WW1 and 2 marked Luger tools can run 100 bucks or so. But I have no idea if the unmarked ones hold any value. Thanks for the help.

castile · 08-13-2023, 12:57 AM

Here are some photos of the Luger.

castile · 08-13-2023, 01:02 AM

More photos

ithacaartist · 08-13-2023, 03:28 AM

Raphielle,

My guess it that the ammo is vintage. Sellier & Bellot makes a semi-jacketed lead soft point round in .30 Luger that is the closest modern ammo I've seen to this. I bought a thousand rounds online that was advertised as FMJ and was surprised when it arrived. Worried that it might be problematic, I expressed my concerns to the seller, but it fed and functioned just fine, and I've used it all up. If you can afford this caliber ammo, or gear up for reloading, it is a great round and sweet to shoot.

Kiwi · 08-13-2023, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by castile

Also had a wood drilled ammo holder with 100 rounds of 7.62x25. I did not check the head stamps. They had some kind of plug in the tip of the bullet. Dumb Dumb bullets?

From the photo it looks like semi jacketed ammo and "the plug" is the exposed lead has oxidized. Old lead ammo frequently has this oxidization.

So no Geneva Convention crimes here

Bill_in_VA · 08-13-2023, 11:11 AM

The oiler is from the RG-34 cleaning kit for the Mauser K89k rifle.

Vlim · 08-13-2023, 11:37 AM

The RG34 was not just for the K98, but for all small arms, including the P08. Nice bonus.

Mac Cat · 08-13-2023, 12:00 PM

Fascinating box to check out!
A cleaning rod, old ammo and a rifle oiler.
I don't think luger tools were marked for commercial pistols.

I think the luger is an Alphabet Luger - post WW-1 military converted to commercial.
It has no grip safety and no chamber marking.
It was originally a military P.08 luger, with a stock lug and numbered small parts.
It retains a little of the original straw color on the small parts, too.
You can get more true colors photographing outdoors with indirect sunlight.

Serial number 1985m would put it in the 1923-24 time frame
It marked for export with the GERMANY stamp over the front frame.

The grips are in good shape, but the barrel looks messy - might just be old oil and dust.
The rear toggle link is numbered, but dented and scared, but it looks pretty good overall.

The chart below was published by Jan C Still, in Weimar Lugers (page 15). That would a good reference book to start with.

Did you buy this kit ?

rolandtg · 08-13-2023, 01:01 PM

What a nice, vintage package. I like the box. I wonder when it was all assembled.

castile · 08-13-2023, 02:10 PM

She did not know much about the guns. Only that her relatives owned them and they were passed and she inherited them. I am selling them for her on GB. She had a bit of an over expectation of price IMO. The Luger I think maybe start it out at 1200 and see if we get any bids. If that is low it will or should go higher. Does that sound reasonable? Thanks.

RichSr · 08-14-2023, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mac Cat;348080

[QUOTE

I think the luger is an Alphabet Luger - post WW-1 military converted to commercial.

Quote:

It was originally a military P.08 luger, with a stock lug and numbered small parts.

Doesn't appear to have ever been a Military pistol. No proof or acceptance marks, not all the usual parts are numbered, and those that are have been marked in the commercial locations.To say nothing of the crown over N markings on both barrel and upper. Except for perhaps some special contract orders, all frames were made with the stock lug after mid 1913.

Quote:

It marked for export with the GERMANY stamp over the front frame

.
The serial number with suffix letter looks like it was stamped with room left for the Germany mark.

Edward Tinker · 08-14-2023, 11:48 PM

The tool is a DDR tool

$75

The magazine is an after market

castile · 08-15-2023, 07:47 AM

Thanks for all the help.

Yakman · 08-15-2023, 11:37 PM

Good catch on the tool, Ed.

castile · 08-16-2023, 09:30 AM

Thanks. I made a mistake once when I had a Third Reich Luger I sold and gave the tool away with it thinking it was not worth anything. Found out the marked waffenampt tool was worth a bit. Live and learn.

08-12-2023, 09:52 AM	#1
castile User Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 95 Thanks: 0 Thanked 36 Times in 12 Posts	Identifying a luger I was in a pawn shop yesterday. There was a lady who brought in a Luger to sell. I thought she was an employee and struck up a conversation with her on the Luger. It ended up I told the pawn shop once I found out she was a customer that if they bought it call me, and I told her if she did not sell it call me. She did not sell it to the pawn shop and is coming over today so I can make an offer on it. So from what I saw maybe some here can help me out and put me in the right direction. It was a 7.62x25. It had a nice original bluing no high polish but just a nice blueing that had the right thinning on the high parts. No serial number on any of the parts, the only numbers I saw were on the frame front, and the underside of the barrel with the bore markings. The top of the toggle was DWM. There were no proof marks or anything on the right side of the frame. It had the usual wood grips. The mag had either a wood or a red wood tone colored end cap with the last two serial numbers stamped in it. There was a Luger tool and I was short on time and did not look to see any marks on it. There was an oiler but I think it was for a K89 or rifle. It was the size of a pack of life savers with the palm and finger pull wings on it. Also had a wood drilled ammo holder with 100 rounds of 7.62x25. I did not check the head stamps. They had some kind of plug in the tip of the bullet. Dumb Dumb bullets? I was thinking it was a 1920 unmarked. But there is not much to go on. Thanks for any help. BTW no date was stamped in the Luger top frame. Thanks for any help

08-13-2023, 12:57 AM	#7
castile User Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 95 Thanks: 0 Thanked 36 Times in 12 Posts	Here are some photos of the Luger. Attached Thumbnails

08-13-2023, 01:02 AM	#8
castile User Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 95 Thanks: 0 Thanked 36 Times in 12 Posts	More photos Attached Thumbnails

08-13-2023, 03:28 AM	#9
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,342 Thanks: 7,264 Thanked 2,569 Times in 1,363 Posts	Raphielle, My guess it that the ammo is vintage. Sellier & Bellot makes a semi-jacketed lead soft point round in .30 Luger that is the closest modern ammo I've seen to this. I bought a thousand rounds online that was advertised as FMJ and was surprised when it arrived. Worried that it might be problematic, I expressed my concerns to the seller, but it fed and functioned just fine, and I've used it all up. If you can afford this caliber ammo, or gear up for reloading, it is a great round and sweet to shoot. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

08-13-2023, 11:11 AM	#11
Bill_in_VA User Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Southwest Virginia Posts: 373 Thanks: 768 Thanked 551 Times in 198 Posts	The oiler is from the RG-34 cleaning kit for the Mauser K89k rifle. __________________ John 8:32 reive (riːv) vb (Military) (intr) dialect Scot and Northern English to go on a plundering raid [variant of reave] ˈreiver n e.g., " Some view the Border Reivers as loveable rogues."

08-12-2023, 12:25 PM	#2
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	The caliber would be .30 Luger, not 7,62x25. From your description it sounds like a 1920s 'alphabet' commercial pistol. They are not the most sought after ones, but can be found in nice shape as they were commercial exports to the US and not wartime issued guns. Please correctly identify the caliber and the rounds before attempting to chamber / fire them.

08-12-2023, 12:43 PM	#3
castile User Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 95 Thanks: 0 Thanked 36 Times in 12 Posts	Thanks. I just remembered someone telling me they shoot the Tokorov rounds out of the 30 Luger. I never checked it out. I was never really interested in the 30 Luger guns. Good to know.

08-12-2023, 12:52 PM	#4
Mac Cat Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 725 Thanks: 2,089 Thanked 606 Times in 327 Posts	A Tokarev round would not fit in the magazine or chamber and if it did, it would damage the gun. What you are looking for is often called ".30 cal luger" or 7.65mm x 21mm It's available in a lot of places on-line. PPU is a good brand you can trust. These are old guns designed just when smokeless power was being introduced. They use a Target load with standard FMJ ball bullets. Avoid NATO, P+, and any other high powered cartridges. It should have a full serial number and suffix under the barrel on the front of the frame. They sell for about $1,200 - $1,800, depending on condition. It is a commercial luger design and should be a good shooter, if the barrel has good rifling.

08-12-2023, 01:02 PM	#5
castile User Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 95 Thanks: 0 Thanked 36 Times in 12 Posts	Thanks Cat. I appreciate the help. Nice to know appx value. So I know what to tell her on value. I would only offer 800 then as it would be for me to sell not to collect. I have 4 third Reich Lugers in my collection.

08-12-2023, 11:16 PM	#6
castile User Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 95 Thanks: 0 Thanked 36 Times in 12 Posts	The lady left several guns with me to sell for her on GB. The Luger is indeed a Commercial Luger all matching with serial number and nitro ect. I think the mag is not original as it has a plastic follower. But strange has the two numbers of the serial stamped in the bottom. I have been busy going over GB sold prices so we could come up with values. I need help on this one and will post pictures in the next few days. Thanks. The Luger has the take down tool but its unmarked. Were the export Luger tools unmarked? I know WW1 and 2 marked Luger tools can run 100 bucks or so. But I have no idea if the unmarked ones hold any value. Thanks for the help.

08-13-2023, 11:37 AM	#12
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	The RG34 was not just for the K98, but for all small arms, including the P08. Nice bonus.

08-13-2023, 12:00 PM	#13
Mac Cat Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 725 Thanks: 2,089 Thanked 606 Times in 327 Posts	Fascinating box to check out! A cleaning rod, old ammo and a rifle oiler. I don't think luger tools were marked for commercial pistols. I think the luger is an Alphabet Luger - post WW-1 military converted to commercial. It has no grip safety and no chamber marking. It was originally a military P.08 luger, with a stock lug and numbered small parts. It retains a little of the original straw color on the small parts, too. You can get more true colors photographing outdoors with indirect sunlight. Serial number 1985m would put it in the 1923-24 time frame It marked for export with the GERMANY stamp over the front frame. The grips are in good shape, but the barrel looks messy - might just be old oil and dust. The rear toggle link is numbered, but dented and scared, but it looks pretty good overall. The chart below was published by Jan C Still, in Weimar Lugers (page 15). That would a good reference book to start with. Did you buy this kit ? Attached Thumbnails

08-13-2023, 01:01 PM	#14
rolandtg User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Hill Country Posts: 477 Thanks: 378 Thanked 258 Times in 113 Posts	What a nice, vintage package. I like the box. I wonder when it was all assembled.

08-13-2023, 02:10 PM	#15
castile User Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 95 Thanks: 0 Thanked 36 Times in 12 Posts	She did not know much about the guns. Only that her relatives owned them and they were passed and she inherited them. I am selling them for her on GB. She had a bit of an over expectation of price IMO. The Luger I think maybe start it out at 1200 and see if we get any bids. If that is low it will or should go higher. Does that sound reasonable? Thanks.

08-14-2023, 11:48 PM	#17
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,930 Thanks: 2,030 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	The tool is a DDR tool $75 The magazine is an after market __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-15-2023, 07:47 AM	#18
castile User Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 95 Thanks: 0 Thanked 36 Times in 12 Posts	Thanks for all the help.

08-15-2023, 11:37 PM	#19
Yakman User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Indiana Posts: 119 Thanks: 881 Thanked 81 Times in 40 Posts	Good catch on the tool, Ed.

08-16-2023, 09:30 AM	#20
castile User Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 95 Thanks: 0 Thanked 36 Times in 12 Posts	Thanks. I made a mistake once when I had a Third Reich Luger I sold and gave the tool away with it thinking it was not worth anything. Found out the marked waffenampt tool was worth a bit. Live and learn.