Toggle won't close

4 Scale · 10-15-2019, 02:24 PM

Over this past summer when firing my favorite shooter Luger, I noticed that about once every 5-8 shots the toggle wouldn't quite close. A quick rap on the top brought it down.

I have owned the pistol a little over two years and before this summer it had never once malfunctioned. The pistol is a Portuguese army Manuel II issue gun, delivered in about 1909 and commonly known as the M2 contract variant. It is a shooter because it has been re-blued, the trigger is from a Mauser P 08 and the grips are aftermarket.

I decided to investigate, hoping to return the pistol to perfect-function status. I tried the following:

I meticulously cleaned and lubricated the pistol. No improvement.

I then tried several different magazines. No improvement.

I then swapped a mainspring from another .30 Luger pistol from the same era (American Eagle built around 1911 or 1912) that was known to function perfectly. No improvement.

While puzzling over what could be happening, I realized I had changed the extractor last winter. The original extractor has a "Carregada" marking and I didn't want to risk breaking that part so I had substituted an aftermarket extractor; I'd forgotten I'd made the swap.

To my surprise, changing the extractor completely fixed the pistol, it now functions flawlessly.

Picture shows the approximate position of the toggle when it failed to return to battery.

4 Scale · 10-15-2019, 02:29 PM

Pictures of the original and aftermarket extractors show the aftermarket one is slightly different in several dimensions.

The learning for me is, never assume anything not proved by actual test, beware aftermarket parts, and test any replacement part at the range promptly. I'd forgotten I had changed the part and assumed that changing a small part would not impact function so had not bothered to test.

I'm offering this story to help anyone who has a toggle that doesn't quite close, and to illustrate the diagnostic process that (eventually!) worked. It is also a cautionary story about how fairly minor changes in part geometry can have a a noticeable impact on function. The matter reminded me that the Parabellum when properly set up and adjusted is a robust and reliable pistol, but the set-up is not trivial.

mrerick · 10-15-2019, 03:12 PM

Glad you resolved the issues. These often require hand fitting even if they are provided with correct in spec dimensions.

(you do know that these are extractors, not ejectors, right?)

Marc

4 Scale · 10-15-2019, 05:08 PM

Yep, I am always saying eject when I mean extract and vice versa, thanks, I'll edit.

DonVoigt · 10-15-2019, 09:11 PM

It is not an unusual circumstance, it depends not only on the shape/length of the extractor, but also of the depth and angle of the cut in the barrel for the extractor.

Good lesson and good detective work!

rhuff · 10-16-2019, 01:44 PM

I experienced something very similar to what you describe, but my problem was not the aftermarket extractor, but the aftermarket extractor spring!! The spring was too stiff, and too long(it would coil bind). Once I replaced the spring with my OEM spring, all was good. Little things mean a lot in these handguns.

Eugen · 10-17-2019, 09:02 PM

4 scale, nice report of your sleuth work to get that bad boy functioning smoothly. Equally nice ensuing discussion. This forum is beaming with helpful tips.

10-15-2019, 02:24 PM	#1
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 489 Times in 251 Posts	Toggle won't close Over this past summer when firing my favorite shooter Luger, I noticed that about once every 5-8 shots the toggle wouldn't quite close. A quick rap on the top brought it down. I have owned the pistol a little over two years and before this summer it had never once malfunctioned. The pistol is a Portuguese army Manuel II issue gun, delivered in about 1909 and commonly known as the M2 contract variant. It is a shooter because it has been re-blued, the trigger is from a Mauser P 08 and the grips are aftermarket. I decided to investigate, hoping to return the pistol to perfect-function status. I tried the following: I meticulously cleaned and lubricated the pistol. No improvement. I then tried several different magazines. No improvement. I then swapped a mainspring from another .30 Luger pistol from the same era (American Eagle built around 1911 or 1912) that was known to function perfectly. No improvement. While puzzling over what could be happening, I realized I had changed the extractor last winter. The original extractor has a "Carregada" marking and I didn't want to risk breaking that part so I had substituted an aftermarket extractor; I'd forgotten I'd made the swap. To my surprise, changing the extractor completely fixed the pistol, it now functions flawlessly. Picture shows the approximate position of the toggle when it failed to return to battery. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by 4 Scale; 10-15-2019 at 05:09 PM.

10-15-2019, 02:29 PM	#2
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 489 Times in 251 Posts	Pictures of the original and aftermarket extractors show the aftermarket one is slightly different in several dimensions. The learning for me is, never assume anything not proved by actual test, beware aftermarket parts, and test any replacement part at the range promptly. I'd forgotten I had changed the part and assumed that changing a small part would not impact function so had not bothered to test. I'm offering this story to help anyone who has a toggle that doesn't quite close, and to illustrate the diagnostic process that (eventually!) worked. It is also a cautionary story about how fairly minor changes in part geometry can have a a noticeable impact on function. The matter reminded me that the Parabellum when properly set up and adjusted is a robust and reliable pistol, but the set-up is not trivial. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by 4 Scale; 10-15-2019 at 05:10 PM.

10-15-2019, 03:12 PM	#3
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Glad you resolved the issues. These often require hand fitting even if they are provided with correct in spec dimensions. (you do know that these are extractors, not ejectors, right?) Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-15-2019, 09:11 PM	#5
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	It is not an unusual circumstance, it depends not only on the shape/length of the extractor, but also of the depth and angle of the cut in the barrel for the extractor. Good lesson and good detective work! __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

10-16-2019, 01:44 PM	#6
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,270 Thanks: 2,686 Thanked 958 Times in 704 Posts	I experienced something very similar to what you describe, but my problem was not the aftermarket extractor, but the aftermarket extractor spring!! The spring was too stiff, and too long(it would coil bind). Once I replaced the spring with my OEM spring, all was good. Little things mean a lot in these handguns. __________________ Need DWM breechblock #21

10-15-2019, 05:08 PM	#4
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 489 Times in 251 Posts	Yep, I am always saying eject when I mean extract and vice versa, thanks, I'll edit.

10-17-2019, 09:02 PM	#7
Eugen User Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Newburgh,IN Posts: 757 Thanks: 366 Thanked 594 Times in 313 Posts	4 scale, nice report of your sleuth work to get that bad boy functioning smoothly. Equally nice ensuing discussion. This forum is beaming with helpful tips. __________________ “God created war so that Americans would learn geography.” ― Mark Twain