Is there a Broomhandle Doctor in the Haus? - Runs Good!

[azlaw]

I have this early prewar commercial C96 (serial 35XXX) that initially would not cycle because the chamber and barrel were totaled. Not enough backpressure to function. Sent it up to Redman for a reline, and he did a great job. Brand new rifling and chamber, and the job looks great. That problem is now fixed. The gun now devellops enough pressure to cycle.

The new problem is that the hammer *sometimes* fails to lock after the bolt passes over it, so the hammer then falls into the notch behind the cocking hump, and the pistol fails to cycle. This notch is obviously a safety feature to prevent the gun from going full auto in case the sear does not re-engage. I have poked around the disconnector (which has a different number than the rest of the parts, so it is a replacement) but I don't see anything obviously wrong. The sear engagement looks like the pictures I have seen on the C96 website, but I don't have anything in my hand to compare to.

Any help or ideas would be appreciated.

I'm using 85gr lead bullets with about 4.2gr Titegroup, and will try varying the load next.

Thanks!

H

[alvin]

35XXX, prewar, so it's a so called "Early Small Ring" with long extractor. Assume it's German, if not, everything is possible. Initial feeling was rocker plunger was not functional so the trigger did not disconnect after firing. But you mentioned the weird behavior of "half-cocking" which confuses big time. What was blocking the hammer from dropping?? On this thing, only two pieces of steel could block the hammer, safety level and sear. Temporily put sear aside, because sear does not offer "half cocking" function.

In normal case, if safety level is pushed up, the hammer cannot be opened at all. Or, hammer already cocked, then safety level at up position will block hammer from dropping. But this one is hard to say because it's not an original gun. Anything is possible. Was the safety on?

===

[Edit] If you post a picture of the gun, probably we can help with some clue. Otherwise, it sounds like a 1930.

[azlaw]

I think it is an early prewar commercial from the little I have been able to study the matter. Here are some pics that might help, some of which show the problem with the hammer apparently failing to engage the sear, or as you say the trigger failing to disengage. Otherwise the gun works fine.

I paid attention to your plunger suggestion. I am using Titegroup, which is a pretty quick powder, a lot quicker than HS6 - gives a quicker pressure spike than the older powders the guns were designed around. Have had functioning problems with too fast a powder in a Steyr-Hahn once and had to go to HS6, but have not heard of this problem in Brooms.

Does the disconnector detail look ok to you? That spring barely catches the ledge of it, and the top is a very loose fit.

[alvin]

Yes! It's Mauser.

The first picture shows the problem. Either the rocker plunger or the disconnector does not work on this gun. As you can see, the hammer falls into the locking notch under the bolt while the bolt is open. This is impossible on a healthy gun with rocker plunger.

Earlier Mausers, Conehammer, Transitional Large Ring, and Italian Flatside do not have rocker plunger, so the hammer is not disconnected from trigger while the bolt is open. On this gun, the disconnector is supposed to be pushed away from the trigger by the plunger when the bolt is unlocked. Without trigger support, the disconnector under force of the "V" sear spring brings down the sear, so the hammer cannot be released at bolt open position on a healty gun.

To figure out what's going on -- take the lock frame out, and couples the bolt lock on top of the lock frame (like gun assembly). Using fingers to push down the bolt lock to emulate unlocking, and observe the behavior of the plunger and disconnector.

Then, put the lock frame into the grip frame without upper barrel assembly, coupling the bolt lock on the top, repeat the previous process, also add hammer cocking, trigger pulling operation into it, you will figure out what's wrong.

From other pictures, the disconnector and sear does not fit well. Also, if I remembered right, the sear of this period is also supposed to be numbered (? don't have my collection at hand, no way to check, I could remember wrong on sear numbering. Mauser changed back and forth on this). Please also note the sear spring's coupling with disconnector is marginal on this one, which is also very suspicious.

[Lugerdoc]

Your sear spring/hammer pivot should be resting in the notch atop the sear arm, not pushing it forward from the rear. TH

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Lugerdoc

Your sear spring/hammer pivot should be resting in the notch atop the sear arm, not pushing it forward from the rear. TH

+ 1

Spring broken?? Do NOT buy one from Numrich! They are not heat treated; they will bend like coat hanger wire...

Here's what it should look like -

[azlaw]

Originally Posted by Lugerdoc

Your sear spring/hammer pivot should be resting in the notch atop the sear arm, not pushing it forward from the rear. TH

Yeah, I kind of got that impression. It would require a new longer spring to fix that, or else TIG weld some more metal onto the disconnector.

The problem here is almost certainly in the disconnector - I peened the sear out a little bit to tighten up the fit of the disconnector on the sear and it changed the problem - it made it worse. Appears to be fitting just a little too tight, and restricting its movement - easy to fix, but I'm not removing any metal until I am sure since I don't know if I can get any more parts if I mess this up.

I don't see much chance of getting a new disconnector from what I have seen, nor a spring, so I guess I will have to work with what I have. Looks like the sear needs to have more downward tension than the setup is presently providing. I need to understand exactly how that disconnector works before monkeying with it further - I still don't see exactly how it interacts with the trigger below it, does the tigger hold it further back than its position in the picture above? Sure would be nice to find a cutaway drawing or something that shows the operation of the gun. Anybody have one?

Thanks for the help!

H

[newluger]

I have been following the discussion concerning this problem. I too have a Broomhandle-Bolo-and the information along with the photos really is a big help. The photos really helped me better understand what is going on and how things should look.
Azlaw thanked you for your help. I would like to thank all of you too. I am amazed at the amount of knowledge that is avaliable on this Forum and your willingness to share.

Thank you again. Newluger

[alvin]

That sounds a little bit unbelievable. You have a gun in hand, and wondered how it works by looking at the gun but confused. By looking at a few static pix, was it more obvious on pictures.... but I did meet this senario:

I have a range friend who could not tell original or reblue by holding guns in his hand, but he told me that he could tell the difference by looking at pictures. That's a internet phenomena.

Since I have wasted lots typing, probably it does not matter to waste a little bit more: No need to find a cutaway. There are only a few moving parts on this thing, pressing lock up and down a few times, you will find how it works and what could be wrong.

Also, no need to load or **** to find trigger or disconector problem. Pull the trigger down, hold it and push back the barrel, you should feel the disconnecting on a healthy gun. Release the barrel, then slowly release the trigger, you should feel the trigger resetting. Not only on broom, Luger is same thing on this type of behavior.

So, try this next time on gun show

[Lugerdoc]

If your hammer is not cocking correctly on recoil, it may not be the sear arm (what you are calling the disconnector) that is at fault. It may be that your rocker plunger (part #11 in GPC exploded view) arm may be too short to activate the disconnector properly. It took me several days to find that this was the problem on a Red Nine that had this problem. TH PS: I do have most ORIGINAL broom parts in stock

[azlaw]

Found the problem, it was visible in the photos I posted - the sear was not properly fitted to the pistol, and was not able to sufficiently engage the hammer. Just had to stone the bottom of the sear a bit to allow it to drop to the sear stop - you can see how much space there was before. I agree that the disconnector/sear arm spring enagement looks a bit flakey, but it doesn't come off and appears to do its job.

The pistol works fine now.

[alvin]

I looked up my Early Transitional Small Ring, the sear of this variation is numbered. The one on this thing has no number, must be a replacement. And the lock frame was filed badly for some reason. Regardless, now it bangs, so you increased the gun value by $50.

[azlaw]

It is pretty obviously a Frankengun, put together from parts. The reline really worked wonders, the gun will now run on 3.2 gr of Titegroup - before even a very heavy HS6 charge would not get it to cycle.

Then next step is range testing, then deployment to Cowboy Action Shooting. Might make the April match. Then we will find out how durable it is.

H

[alvin]

Is there indeed a shooting match for this thing? I heard some guys had a match each year, with stock, and without stock. Obviously, some fun over there. People sent me a private message asking "will you join?" back a few years ago...... I would like to, but I have not yet. Lots of fun in shooting classical firearms, enjoy!

[azlaw]

Originally Posted by alvin

Is there indeed a shooting match for this thing? ...... I would like to, but I have not yet. Lots of fun in shooting classical firearms, enjoy!

Cowboy Action Shooting has developed a class called the "Wild Bunch" that is turn-of-the-century/Mexican Revolution time period. The initial SASS rules opened it to 1911 pistols, however, the class is now generally broadened to any automatic in production prior to WWI. Broomhandle, Luger, Steyr-Hahn, Borchardt, etc. - our club permits all (plus we shoot at Tombstone AZ, doesn't get much better than that). You would need to locate a CAS club near you, and ask if they offer Wild Bunch - there are some in Mass, others up in NH/VT. Some clubs don't at all, others limit it to 1911s, some limit it to a side match.

I have been using a Luger for some time, but wanted something even weirder. I had a custom belt and holster made for the Luger - I am in the process of hacking up one of those Chinese repro holsters to make a cowboy rig.

Safety is a big issue with these old autos in competition, so the shooter has to practice loading and firing procedures before stepping onto the firing line. The Broomhandle is especially nasty because it is "hot" as soon as the stripper clip is pulled unless you "duck" the top round under the bolt. A little tricky to do that on the clock. We already had one AD in the shop on a Steyr-Hahn, similar issue, fortunately no harm done.

For Wild Bunch generally, see: http://www.sassnet.com/WB-Main-001A.php

Here's a start on finding a local club:
http://www.thespiritoftheoldwest.com...#Massachusetts

[azlaw]

Took the gun to the range today. Runs perfectly on 85gr bullets and 3.2gr of Titegroup. Next step is the cowboy match! Need to get or make some better stripper clips for it, these stick on the bolt.

H

[alvin]

Tucson, AZ....

A guy claimed as a 18 year old boy in Tucson AZ (could be an problemic adult, God knows) sent me a message asking "I will send you money in a couple of days, can you send the gun directly to my home? Gun dealer won't transfer for me because I've not reached age yet."

What type of kid is this..... 18 years old, trying to practise illegal trade.

Many kids of this type in Tucson, AZ?

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by alvin

Tucson, AZ....

A guy claimed as a 18 year old boy in Tucson AZ (could be an problemic adult, God knows) sent me a message asking "I will send you money in a couple of days, can you send the gun directly to my home? Gun dealer won't transfer for me because I've not reached age yet."

What type of kid is this..... 18 years old, trying to practise illegal trade.

Many kids of this type in Tucson, AZ?

Many undercover BATFE agents saying they are under 18 and targeting you (for some reason), is the more likely explanation...

Internet is a vast pond, with many fishermen, not all looking for the same fish...

[alvin]

Thanks Postino. No wonder.

It's not hard to tell who's serious, who's fishing. Serious people have good questions about guns, fishing guys only talk about money, either "I pay you" or "you pay me", nothing else. If not focusing on guns, nor on money, but talking about illegal sale, he must be a ATF agent

A illegal gun is much worse than a fake check. Remember Dale Buller.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by alvin

If not focusing on guns, nor on money, but talking about illegal sale, he must be a ATF agent

I am serious. Not only BATFE, but US Postal Inspectors (illegally mailing firearm thru mail; paying with USPS Money Order by mail; etc); local LEO; State LEO; probably more...They're all online now...and all looking for an easy catch...

The X Files had it right...Trust..No One...