My new Finnish "SA" Parabellum

[some_finn]

Not sure in which section I should post as it is a "commercial" m/23 7.65mm but on the other hand it's ex-Finnish Army so it's a military gun... (Admin please move if necessary).

Anyway, bought it today at a Finnish gun show.
All matching but kind of worn, might have actually seen action and not just sat in someone's holster at the headquarters..?
Price was more in the "shooter" range so thought it was a decent deal.
Got an SA marked holster to go with it, too.















Also saw for sale at the gun show: artillery and navy parabellum, Swiss 06/29, Finnish "Vankeinhoitolaitos" (prison service) marked one and various typical P/08 and m/23 models in both calibers.

[Pete Ebbink]

Simo,

Nice looking rig you have...I especially like the leather. Congratulations !

You might look at this e-Bay item # 7220128755

[Luke]

Simo -

Congratulations on a nice, authentic Finnish Rig. The fact that the gun is all matching is a large plus for a Finnish Parabellum. Also, I have not seen any 7.65mm versions for sale here, although I do know a couple of collectors who have found one.

Enjoy.

Luke

[Lugerdoc]

Luke, I believe that SOG still has a few mismatch, importer marked 7.65mm SA marked M23s available without holster in the $1K range. Perhaps for the price difference, you could afford a trip to Finland to find a nicer one or even a rarer variation. What's the going price in Finland in dollars, not raindeer? TH

[some_finn]

Originally posted by Lugerdoc
What's the going price in Finland in dollars, not raindeer? TH

I paid about $550 for this combo. I'm not up to date on current reindeer prices.
Actually I've never seen one outside a zoo as I've never been to Lappland.
The traditional "pre-money" currency around here was supposedly squirrel skins.

I think most Finnish Army Parabellums were at some point converted to 9mm using Tikkakoski barrels and using high power 9mm ammo broke a lot of toggle links after that. For example my "shooter" with a 9mm Tikkakoski barrel has a non-numbered rear toggle.
I haven't cleaned the barrel of this one yet. Who knows, maybe there will be something resembling rifling still left

[Luke]

Simo -

Regarding your 9mm Tikkakoski Parabellum: Three of my Finnish Parabellums have unnumbered rear toggle links that I believe to be Mauser parts . . . . possibly spare parts ordered from Germany by Finland during WW-II.

Was this the most likely link to break under the added stress of the hotter ammumition? I would have thought it would be the forward or middle link.

Luke

[Ron Wood]

Simo,
I would like to add my congratulations on your excellent rig and even more impressive price! As Luke has noted, an all matching Finnish Luger is a scarce item.

I am curious, do you happen to remember the asking price for the Vankeinhoitolaitos Luger? They are very uncommon and I have only seen them in pictures.

[some_finn]

Originally posted by Luke
Three of my Finnish Parabellums have unnumbered rear toggle links that I believe to be Mauser parts

Was this the most likely link to break under the added stress of the hotter ammumition? I would have thought it would be the forward or middle link.

I haven't made any large scale investigation into the matter but it does seem that the rear one is very often replaced (or it's just easy to spot as the number is missing?).
But I do think it's kind of logical. The rear toggle is the one that is connected to the frame and ultimately takes all the punishment (or am I misunderstanding something, I'm not a mechanical engineer?).

Sorry, I can't really remember very accurately how much the Vankeinhoitolaitos one cost, if I say $1000 I think I'm off by less than $500

Parabellums are cheap or at least reasonably priced around here, I guess the collector's market is somewhat saturated compared to the US for example. Same thing with Mauser C96s. But for some strange reason (wartime) Walther P.38s are hideously expensive, more than twice what they cost in Central Europe. That's why I got mine from Belgium

yes, I too think your Luger is sweet. I would not touch a thing, looks great just as it is...has character. Best of luck with it..Bob

[thegundude]

Congratulations one the great deal and even nicer Finn Luger. You know, It might even be worth the price of the ticket to Finland for such a deal (not sure about how it get it home again though)...

And I agree with Bob (IronCross4148) about not touching it. I like it just the way it is...

[Heinz]

Nice find! The museum on the island fortress off the coast of Helsinki is one of my favorite small museums. Of course if you count the entire fortress it is not so small!

This pistol is a grand example of the arms used in the remarkable Finnish fight for freedom!

[some_finn]

Out of principle I wanted to see how it would shoot (I'm not interested in guns that "can't be shot", for whatever reason).

I found a box of Fiocchi 7.65 Para ammo, expecting it would be good stuff. At least it has a solid reputation and is priced like it had silver bullets.

The Parabellum wouldn't work with it at all. Wouldn't eject properly (or not as well a Parabellum should, the cases were more like falling out than flying out) and it would fail to feed on every round. Closer inspection revealed the lock wasn't going all the way to the rear, and then couldn't properly feed the next cartridge.
I chrony'd the Fiocchi ammo at a pedestrian speed of 323 m/s (1060 fps).

I tried my hand at reloading and noticed that the gun will start to work 100% when the 6g bullet gets up to about 350 m/s (1150fps).

I tried to find out what the performance of the original load was but had trouble finding this info. Someone here probably knows? I have a recollection that the original ammo was at least 360 m/s with the 6g bullet if not more?

Anyway, the gun shoots sort of decently, something like 4" groups (offhand at 25 meters). Taking into account that the original barrel is quite worn, I declare myself happy with it.
By comparison my 9mm "shooter" with a very good condition Tikkakoski barrel shoots easily 2" or even less.

[the gunman]

Simo very nice rig. What are the gun laws there Re: handguns .

[some_finn]

Originally posted by the gunman
What are the gun laws there Re: handguns

All firearms need a permit. To get it, you need to have an acceptable use for it (sports shooting or hunting, self-defence is not acceptable) and a place where you can safely use it for the aforementioned purpose.
If you have convictions (especially violent or drug related crimes) for anything serious, or are known to have a serious substance abuse problem, mental problems etc it's a no-go.
A lot depends on the attitude of the local "sheriff" but in most places once you get a permit for a gun bigger than .22 you can get additional ones very easily.

Concealable guns are a big no-no. There is a box into which pistols and revolvers may not fit. If they fit in it, they are "pocket pistols" for which a permit is practically impossible to get except for collection (in which case you usually get slapped with a restriction that you may not fire the weapon).
A Glock 19 will just fit in the box. I guess we have big pockets here!

[Luke]

Simo -

I have a German DWM "Alpahbet Commercial" in 7.65mm with pretty much the same cycling problem that you experienced with the Fiocchi ammunition.

Some have suggested that a weaker mainspring (Wolff sells one.) might solve the problem, but I have not attempted the changeover yet.

Luke

[some_finn]

Originally posted by Luke

I have a German DWM "Alpahbet Commercial" in 7.65mm with pretty much the same cycling problem that you experienced with the Fiocchi ammunition.

Some have suggested that a weaker mainspring (Wolff sells one.) might solve the problem, but I have not attempted the changeover yet.

Thanks, nice to know it's not necessarily a problem with my gun but the ammo.

Changing the spring is a horrible ordeal, I've once helped a smith to change one.
Took four hands and all his strength. And he was something of an expert on Parabellums so it wasn't like he was doing it for the first time. Mind you, it was an "extra power" 9mm spring so pretty stiff...

I'm not going to shoot this pistol much, maybe 50 rounds once a year if that.
So it's less of a hassle just to load ammo that works

Congratulations, wow that Luger is great. I wish it were mine. I happen to like those finnish lugers as they are a great piece of history. Good Luck
Bob