Collectors, colt vs. luger conditions...

Wombat · 04-12-2001, 11:31 AM

OKay, maybe it's just me on this subject. I love both Lugers and Colt 1911 WW2 style guns. Anything pre 1946, till around the WW1 era. But, I have noticed a major difference in the two guns, as far as collectors' markets go:

Lugers are generally in very well condition, even for shooters! They have nice finishes, metal, wood, and fire like a charm. They seem to stand up to the test of time, considering they were made roughly 80 (give or take) years ago.

Now, the Colt 1911 Govt. style pistols from the same time era seem to be different. Every time I've seen one in a Gun Shop for sale, they are in extremely poor condition. Major pitting, bad grips, and generally look like a total mess (externally). And the price tag is also quite high. While on the other hand, Lugers seem to look great, and hold up much nicer. What reasons are there for this?

Now, I am by no means a Colt 1911 govt expert, nor do I know a lot about them. It could just be me noticing this, or something else? If anyone knows why this could be (manufacturing, treatment, lack of supply?), please enlighten me.

But for now, I am sticking with Lugers. I am more into the European theatre guns more anyways...

---Wombat

John Sabato · 04-12-2001, 12:35 PM

One of the reasons that American military weapons in private hands are not in the best of shape is that the government tends to release weapons (or did) only when they have reached the end of their useful life.

In those cases where large quantities of serviceable weapons have been released to the public, in most cases, those weapons were purchased to USE, not collect and the quality of what you got is random.

Most of those weapons for sale releases occurred years ago and most of the weapons purchased by private individuals have had many years of use. The few that were received in good shape by collectors are the few that you find today in good shape because they sat on the shelf in the safe, and been handled only with gloves.

Another reason that American weapons in private hands are seldom seen in good condition is that seldom if ever have any of them been "war trophies" because we have never been a conquered nation. The Lugers for example, most have been war trophies or war booty and have been preserved because they held commercial value or would serve later generation military forces. The "bring back" category of war trophies were often just fondled by their captors and their heirs instead of being used up.

Those US origin "bring backs" very likely came back as contraband and seldom if ever saw the light of day unless danger threatened. ...Witness the story I told last week about the .45 war trophy being mailed home inside a lamp from Vietnam...

The fact is that until recent years the U.S. military seldom kept good records about war losses involving weapons so the fact that something is marked US Property is of little consequence unless the weapon is of recent manufacture. So many .45's; Garands, Carbines, etc. have been sold by ODCMP and it's predecessor the DCM that this is a common mark on gun show examples of US military weapons.

One last reason that US military weapons in private hands look bad beside the weapons of our adversaries is that we as a nation decided long ago that our primary objective in military weapons is to shoot reliably, not look pretty. That's why our weapons are Parkerized (phosphate) rather than blued. Our weapons that were blue finished during wartime production was done as an expeditious answer to high volume production when parkerizing would have meant slowing down the production line.

I hope this has been somewhat helpful, (if not longwinded).

-John Sabato (US Army Retired 1967-1988)

Johnny Peppers · 04-12-2001, 03:52 PM

There has never been a military handgun that had the quality of finish of the early 1911 Colt military pistol. The pistols were polished on leather covered wheels and were blued in large gas fired ovens that had a mixture of charcoal and ground animal bone. The frames and slides were finished on the same rack so there would be no difference in the color. They had a mirror quality blue finish and the small parts had an outstanding fire blue finish. The finish was of such a reflective quality that the military complained to Colt and ask that the pistols be given a finish that was less reflective. Only the first 2400 1911 military pistols were finished in this way, and an original example of one of these pistols in 97/98% will be in the $10,000 to $12,500 range today. Up until WWI the 1911 still had a nice finish, but as the United States got into WWI, less and less attention was paid to the final polish and these pistols have a rougher finish.

The last of the military 1911 pistols were made in 1919 and in 1924 the military gave Colt a contract for 10,000 of the improved 1911 pistol which became the 1911A1. The new pistol started at serial number 700001. The military did not order another 1911A1 pistol until 1937 and from that date until mid 1941 all the pistols were blued in a gas fired oven with charcoal and oil. The pistols in the range from 700001 to approximately 734000 also exhibit a beautiful brushed blue finish. 98/99% examples of these pistols exhist but are rare, and today command prices in the $3500 to $4500 range. In mid 1941 Colt changed to the phosphate finish which continuted for the remainder of production which ceased in mid/late fall of 1945.

Early Remington Rand, Ithacas, and all Union Switch & Signal 1911A1 pistols had a Du-Lite blue over a sandblasted finish. Remington Rand and Ithaca switched to a phosphate finish in

early 1943. A 98/99% US&S 1911A1 will be in the $2000 to $3000 range today, with a like new US&S in it's original shipping box selling for $3800 recently.

The Singer 1911A1 had an almost commercial Du-Lite blue finish, and with only 500 being made on an educational contract, a restored example will bring $7500 to $8500 and a true 97/98% example will have a price tag in the $25000 to $30000 range.

The 1911/1911A1 pistol has been through several wars, but nice examples of them still exist. It appears that most of them are locked up in gunsafes and only come out when a collection is disposed of. When the 1911's and 1911A1's were being sold through the DCM in the early 60's, quite a few new in the shipping box Remington Rands were sold for $17 each. Today these pistols are priced in the $1250 range.

04-12-2001, 05:01 PM

JP's post provided some excellent information on the history and value of this pistol, thanks. It seems to me that most 1911A1 pistols that I have seen in really nice condition have been arsenal refinishes and marked accordingly. A friend (non-collector) has a 1943 Ithica that is 99%+ (I can not detect a blemish inside or out) and it is parkerized and marked RIA on the frame. I have been told that this pistol is worth around $500. It seems like a heck of a value cut over a factory finish. I guess that in my experience I have seen a lot of decent arsenal refinished 1911A1's.

Johnny Peppers · 04-12-2001, 06:26 PM

A couple of years ago the Ithaca would have been a $500 pistol, but on todays market it would be closer to $650. Not all the pistols with an arsenal mark are rebuilds. Several years back I had a mid 1943 Colt that was marked RIA (Rock Island Arsenal), FK (Frank Krack, in charge of rebuild) and the flaming ordnance bomb. At this time Colt was serial numbering the slide to the frame, and this pistol was totally correct and original. I bought an old Arms Gazette that had an article on 1911A1's, and in the article was a pistol with markings identical to mine and it was only 9 serial numbers later. About the same time a list of military pistols came out in the SG News, and there was a pistol with the same markings 13 numbers before mine. Apparently a block of Colts had gone through Rock Island while still new, and were stamped with their mark.

Model 1911A1 pistols are no different from Lugers when it comes to original finish. An original pistol of any make will just always be worth more than one that has been reworked.

Matt · 04-12-2001, 10:04 PM

Another factor may be that 9mm ammo didn't become popular in the U.S. until the 1980s, when all of the so called "wondernine" hi-capacity pistols became popular among shooters. A lot of the war trophy pistols were just tucked away and rarely or never fired. The 1911/1911A1s have always been shooter pistols as well as collector guns. There's just not as many people who shoot Lugers and P.38s compared to .45 autos. Several of my shooting buddies had never fired a Luger until shooting mine.

04-13-2001, 08:54 AM

For some years after WW2, 9mmP and especially 7.65P ammo was a lot more difficult and expensive than surplus GI 45acp. Also, the surplus GI M1911s & A1s were also more cheaply obtained thru the NRA etc. than war trophies (Lugers, P38s, etc) and therefore were shot to death, reworked into custom guns, or carried unprotected under the seat of the car. It is only in the last 20 years or so that the collector demand for these has surpassed the atricion rate, whereas it seems that the demand for nice WW2 German pistols has been constantly rising, at least since the 1968 gun control act. Just my 2 cents worth.

04-12-2001, 11:31 AM	#1
Wombat User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 89 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Collectors, colt vs. luger conditions... OKay, maybe it's just me on this subject. I love both Lugers and Colt 1911 WW2 style guns. Anything pre 1946, till around the WW1 era. But, I have noticed a major difference in the two guns, as far as collectors' markets go: Lugers are generally in very well condition, even for shooters! They have nice finishes, metal, wood, and fire like a charm. They seem to stand up to the test of time, considering they were made roughly 80 (give or take) years ago. Now, the Colt 1911 Govt. style pistols from the same time era seem to be different. Every time I've seen one in a Gun Shop for sale, they are in extremely poor condition. Major pitting, bad grips, and generally look like a total mess (externally). And the price tag is also quite high. While on the other hand, Lugers seem to look great, and hold up much nicer. What reasons are there for this? Now, I am by no means a Colt 1911 govt expert, nor do I know a lot about them. It could just be me noticing this, or something else? If anyone knows why this could be (manufacturing, treatment, lack of supply?), please enlighten me. But for now, I am sticking with Lugers. I am more into the European theatre guns more anyways... ---Wombat

04-12-2001, 12:35 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Here is an explanation from an old soldier. (long post) One of the reasons that American military weapons in private hands are not in the best of shape is that the government tends to release weapons (or did) only when they have reached the end of their useful life. In those cases where large quantities of serviceable weapons have been released to the public, in most cases, those weapons were purchased to USE, not collect and the quality of what you got is random. Most of those weapons for sale releases occurred years ago and most of the weapons purchased by private individuals have had many years of use. The few that were received in good shape by collectors are the few that you find today in good shape because they sat on the shelf in the safe, and been handled only with gloves. Another reason that American weapons in private hands are seldom seen in good condition is that seldom if ever have any of them been "war trophies" because we have never been a conquered nation. The Lugers for example, most have been war trophies or war booty and have been preserved because they held commercial value or would serve later generation military forces. The "bring back" category of war trophies were often just fondled by their captors and their heirs instead of being used up. Those US origin "bring backs" very likely came back as contraband and seldom if ever saw the light of day unless danger threatened. ...Witness the story I told last week about the .45 war trophy being mailed home inside a lamp from Vietnam... The fact is that until recent years the U.S. military seldom kept good records about war losses involving weapons so the fact that something is marked US Property is of little consequence unless the weapon is of recent manufacture. So many .45's; Garands, Carbines, etc. have been sold by ODCMP and it's predecessor the DCM that this is a common mark on gun show examples of US military weapons. One last reason that US military weapons in private hands look bad beside the weapons of our adversaries is that we as a nation decided long ago that our primary objective in military weapons is to shoot reliably, not look pretty. That's why our weapons are Parkerized (phosphate) rather than blued. Our weapons that were blue finished during wartime production was done as an expeditious answer to high volume production when parkerizing would have meant slowing down the production line. I hope this has been somewhat helpful, (if not longwinded). -John Sabato (US Army Retired 1967-1988)

04-12-2001, 03:52 PM	#3
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Here is an explanation from an old soldier. (long post) There has never been a military handgun that had the quality of finish of the early 1911 Colt military pistol. The pistols were polished on leather covered wheels and were blued in large gas fired ovens that had a mixture of charcoal and ground animal bone. The frames and slides were finished on the same rack so there would be no difference in the color. They had a mirror quality blue finish and the small parts had an outstanding fire blue finish. The finish was of such a reflective quality that the military complained to Colt and ask that the pistols be given a finish that was less reflective. Only the first 2400 1911 military pistols were finished in this way, and an original example of one of these pistols in 97/98% will be in the $10,000 to $12,500 range today. Up until WWI the 1911 still had a nice finish, but as the United States got into WWI, less and less attention was paid to the final polish and these pistols have a rougher finish. The last of the military 1911 pistols were made in 1919 and in 1924 the military gave Colt a contract for 10,000 of the improved 1911 pistol which became the 1911A1. The new pistol started at serial number 700001. The military did not order another 1911A1 pistol until 1937 and from that date until mid 1941 all the pistols were blued in a gas fired oven with charcoal and oil. The pistols in the range from 700001 to approximately 734000 also exhibit a beautiful brushed blue finish. 98/99% examples of these pistols exhist but are rare, and today command prices in the $3500 to $4500 range. In mid 1941 Colt changed to the phosphate finish which continuted for the remainder of production which ceased in mid/late fall of 1945. Early Remington Rand, Ithacas, and all Union Switch & Signal 1911A1 pistols had a Du-Lite blue over a sandblasted finish. Remington Rand and Ithaca switched to a phosphate finish in early 1943. A 98/99% US&S 1911A1 will be in the $2000 to $3000 range today, with a like new US&S in it's original shipping box selling for $3800 recently. The Singer 1911A1 had an almost commercial Du-Lite blue finish, and with only 500 being made on an educational contract, a restored example will bring $7500 to $8500 and a true 97/98% example will have a price tag in the $25000 to $30000 range. The 1911/1911A1 pistol has been through several wars, but nice examples of them still exist. It appears that most of them are locked up in gunsafes and only come out when a collection is disposed of. When the 1911's and 1911A1's were being sold through the DCM in the early 60's, quite a few new in the shipping box Remington Rands were sold for $17 each. Today these pistols are priced in the $1250 range.

04-12-2001, 05:01 PM	#4
BCC Guest Posts: n/a	Observations and questions JP's post provided some excellent information on the history and value of this pistol, thanks. It seems to me that most 1911A1 pistols that I have seen in really nice condition have been arsenal refinishes and marked accordingly. A friend (non-collector) has a 1943 Ithica that is 99%+ (I can not detect a blemish inside or out) and it is parkerized and marked RIA on the frame. I have been told that this pistol is worth around $500. It seems like a heck of a value cut over a factory finish. I guess that in my experience I have seen a lot of decent arsenal refinished 1911A1's.

04-12-2001, 06:26 PM	#5
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Observations and questions A couple of years ago the Ithaca would have been a $500 pistol, but on todays market it would be closer to $650. Not all the pistols with an arsenal mark are rebuilds. Several years back I had a mid 1943 Colt that was marked RIA (Rock Island Arsenal), FK (Frank Krack, in charge of rebuild) and the flaming ordnance bomb. At this time Colt was serial numbering the slide to the frame, and this pistol was totally correct and original. I bought an old Arms Gazette that had an article on 1911A1's, and in the article was a pistol with markings identical to mine and it was only 9 serial numbers later. About the same time a list of military pistols came out in the SG News, and there was a pistol with the same markings 13 numbers before mine. Apparently a block of Colts had gone through Rock Island while still new, and were stamped with their mark. Model 1911A1 pistols are no different from Lugers when it comes to original finish. An original pistol of any make will just always be worth more than one that has been reworked.

04-12-2001, 10:04 PM	#6
Matt User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 196 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Observations and questions Another factor may be that 9mm ammo didn't become popular in the U.S. until the 1980s, when all of the so called "wondernine" hi-capacity pistols became popular among shooters. A lot of the war trophy pistols were just tucked away and rarely or never fired. The 1911/1911A1s have always been shooter pistols as well as collector guns. There's just not as many people who shoot Lugers and P.38s compared to .45 autos. Several of my shooting buddies had never fired a Luger until shooting mine.

04-13-2001, 08:54 AM	#7
tom heller Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Collectors, colt vs. luger conditions... For some years after WW2, 9mmP and especially 7.65P ammo was a lot more difficult and expensive than surplus GI 45acp. Also, the surplus GI M1911s & A1s were also more cheaply obtained thru the NRA etc. than war trophies (Lugers, P38s, etc) and therefore were shot to death, reworked into custom guns, or carried unprotected under the seat of the car. It is only in the last 20 years or so that the collector demand for these has surpassed the atricion rate, whereas it seems that the demand for nice WW2 German pistols has been constantly rising, at least since the 1968 gun control act. Just my 2 cents worth.