Questions about a 1916 DWM

revolverforums · 02-06-2009, 04:45 PM

I just want to know what I really have. I picked this up for 750 as a shooter. All of the numbers seem to match, the take down pin has no number I can find. I don't see any straw on it and the grips and the clip have no markings but appear correct. Stories are stories but it was supposed to come from the bring back collection of a WWII US general. I'll try to post the story as I get it but like I say stories are stories so they mean little without proof.

Here is a link to the photos, I was going to upload them here but the limits are so small I think it kills the detail and I wanted people to be able to look over any details they might need so I just put the good the bad and the ugly in a folder on one of my servers. There are four pages of photos and most are pretty close to raw if you want a close up just click on the mid size image.

http://www.moviephotoforums.com/phot...t=565&ppuser=0

revolverforums · 02-06-2009, 05:27 PM

The story I got was this gun came from this collection. Stories are stories so that is just BBQ information.

Brig. General (Ret) Sidney Christiansen (A.K.A. Sid Christie) was a deputy chief of the U.S. Army Ordnance during the time of design of M-60 machinegun and .308 cartrige. After he retired worked for the U.S. Navy in San Diego, where became a very popular between gun enthusiasts and competitive shoters. One of the very rare pistols he brought after WWII from Europe ended up at the Smithsonian. It is .45 Polish combat pistol Wz.35 RADOM (A.K.A. VIS). General issue RADOM was in 9mm; only a five .45s were made for the evaluations.

jonnyc · 02-06-2009, 05:46 PM

Never heard of a Radom in .45!

revolverforums · 02-06-2009, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnyc

Never heard of a Radom in .45!

Like I say thats just a story, I have no idea if there is any truth to it or not.

This is what a google search showed up on the 45 possibility, but I'm more interested what people see in the photo's just to know what I have and how much might be original. It really is of no consequence since it is a shooter to me but thought it might be interesting to here what people think.

A .45 ACP version was developed but never made it into production (it was shown to Argentinean officials in 1937). .22 LR variant was also made, but there is no information available on the amount produced and the only known specimen is on display in Hungarian Army Museum in Budapest. Trials were also conducted with a full-auto Vis equipped with larger magazines and a detachable shoulder stock. Plans for this version were scrapped when Mors submachine-gun was developed.

alvin · 02-06-2009, 06:42 PM

From those pix, the finish of bigger parts look ok to me. The grip panels are replacement. The TD level..... I don't know, should it be numbered? --- yes, should be numbered to the gun.

Why did this thing have so many "X"? Gift from a Red Army general? Zukov?

revolverforums · 02-06-2009, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

From those pix, the finish of bigger parts look ok to me. The grip panels are replacement. The TD level..... I don't know, should it be numbered? --- yes, should be numbered to the gun.

Why did this thing have so many "X"?

I see one X stamped under the grip area but mostly W's and F's. Where do you see any other X's?

alvin · 02-06-2009, 07:15 PM

The other one is near the trigger area on the frame.

revolverforums · 02-06-2009, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

The other one is near the trigger area on the frame.

I guess your going to tell me the russians stamped the gun twice with two different fonts? ROFL

Edward Tinker · 02-06-2009, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by revolverforums

...
Here is a link to the photos, I was going to upload them here but the limits are so small I think it kills the detail

It may be what you like, but its "preferred" that you post HERE on this forum so members don't have to leave the forum, in addition, many times on "hosted" sites, folks then delete the pictures and part of the learning is seeing the pictures.

I know I sound negative and apoligize for it, but clicking on each link to find out what you're looking for, well, many folks won't do it. sorry

Ed

alvin · 02-06-2009, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by revolverforums

I guess your going to tell me the russians stamped the gun twice with two different fonts? ROFL

You have at least one Imperial Military, I have not gotten one yet

Please copy a few key pictures, plus the stamp under the barrel over here.... some collectors have tons of these things, they knew it by heart. Hopefully, they will tell us.

revolverforums · 02-06-2009, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

It may be what you like, but its "preferred" that you post HERE on this forum so members don't have to leave the forum, in addition, many times on "hosted" sites, folks then delete the pictures and part of the learning is seeing the pictures.

I know I sound negative and apoligize for it, but clicking on each link to find out what you're looking for, well, many folks won't do it. sorry

Ed

Ed I have no problem putting the photos on this site, I really wanted people to be able to see detail. I had posted other images on here and they looked like thumbnails is the only reason I posted them that way. My apology, if it makes any difference they are on one of my many servers and I can assure you nothing is loaded on your machine at all.

George Anderson · 02-06-2009, 08:35 PM

P08 is totally reblued. Probably heat bluing here in the US.

revolverforums · 02-06-2009, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Anderson

P08 is totally reblued. Probably heat bluing here in the US.

George can I ask how you can be sure of this? I own about 100 revolvers and can't pick out a reblue from an original even on some I know that have been blued that are older then this is.

George Anderson · 02-06-2009, 09:10 PM

Max, All Imperial era Lugers, both DWM and Erfurt, were rust blued with small parts in straw. The process required that the interior of the pistol stay in the "white". A quick perusal of your photos indicated a 1916 DWM Luger with small parts blued and all interior surfaces blued. These two factors would indicate a gun that had been completely and improperly reblued.

alvin · 02-06-2009, 09:11 PM

The color tone on this pix does look like rust blue..... especially on the huge picture (that site allows huge picture).

revolverforums · 02-06-2009, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

The color tone on this pix does look like rust blue.....

OK fair enough, couldn't be the color of the light or angle or the lens and reflection? I only ask because there is no blue in the pitting and they did a good job not to blue those areas from what I can see. Oh and all the other numbers including the firing pin match. The only exception is the take down pin which has no number at all. Looks to be in good shape mechanically just needs cleaning and I plan to take it to the range and shoot the hell out of my shooter.

alvin · 02-06-2009, 09:28 PM

That's one reason gun inspection must be done on very good light source, better under sunlight. If I remembered right, stamps on barrel should show halo. Picture taking is similar, but avoiding direct strong light on the gun, using red or sky blue as background, showing overall, edges, stamps, marks, and numbers.

If George is right, this one gets me though.

revolverforums · 02-06-2009, 09:40 PM

Some how this got off track, you guys are looking for a collector and want to point out any flaw you see or perceive for some reason. I paid 750 for a shooter and was just looking to see if anyone had any words of wisdom instead of attacking anything and everything. IT'S NOT A COLLECTOR. I thought I made that clear.

Yes that site that allows the huge images, the guy that owns it has been in the internet forum business for several years longer then this forum has been around and I hear the guy has made pretty good money off being forward thinking and understanding that what is considered big today will be poor quality tomorrow. I heard one of his sites he built 6 years ago sold for stupid money because he applied that thinking when he started it.

alvin · 02-06-2009, 10:07 PM

Max, I think what important is not a particular single gun, or $750, or it has flaw or not. What important is we know it's what it is. Refurbished, fine, we need to know why it's refurbished. Learn a little bit from every gun, to dig out more from $750 besides shooting fun. IMO.

revolverforums · 02-06-2009, 11:05 PM

Alvin between my years in the military and just a small part of my own collection I have fired no less then 20k rounds including doing service on a 109 firing 155mm howitzers. I consider these to be childs play. This site has some very good information on it, it also has a problem and IMHO the reason it hasn't grown and never will. Have a good day.

I still prefer things that go around, they always go bang.

02-06-2009, 04:45 PM	#1
revolverforums Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Questions about a 1916 DWM I just want to know what I really have. I picked this up for 750 as a shooter. All of the numbers seem to match, the take down pin has no number I can find. I don't see any straw on it and the grips and the clip have no markings but appear correct. Stories are stories but it was supposed to come from the bring back collection of a WWII US general. I'll try to post the story as I get it but like I say stories are stories so they mean little without proof. Here is a link to the photos, I was going to upload them here but the limits are so small I think it kills the detail and I wanted people to be able to look over any details they might need so I just put the good the bad and the ugly in a folder on one of my servers. There are four pages of photos and most are pretty close to raw if you want a close up just click on the mid size image. http://www.moviephotoforums.com/phot...t=565&ppuser=0

02-06-2009, 09:11 PM	#15
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	The color tone on this pix does look like rust blue..... especially on the huge picture (that site allows huge picture). Attached Thumbnails

02-06-2009, 05:27 PM	#2
revolverforums Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The story I got was this gun came from this collection. Stories are stories so that is just BBQ information. Brig. General (Ret) Sidney Christiansen (A.K.A. Sid Christie) was a deputy chief of the U.S. Army Ordnance during the time of design of M-60 machinegun and .308 cartrige. After he retired worked for the U.S. Navy in San Diego, where became a very popular between gun enthusiasts and competitive shoters. One of the very rare pistols he brought after WWII from Europe ended up at the Smithsonian. It is .45 Polish combat pistol Wz.35 RADOM (A.K.A. VIS). General issue RADOM was in 9mm; only a five .45s were made for the evaluations.

02-06-2009, 05:46 PM	#3
jonnyc User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 425 Thanks: 2 Thanked 46 Times in 34 Posts	Never heard of a Radom in .45!

02-06-2009, 06:42 PM	#5
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	From those pix, the finish of bigger parts look ok to me. The grip panels are replacement. The TD level..... I don't know, should it be numbered? --- yes, should be numbered to the gun. Why did this thing have so many "X"? Gift from a Red Army general? Zukov?

02-06-2009, 07:15 PM	#7
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	The other one is near the trigger area on the frame.

02-06-2009, 08:35 PM	#12
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	P08 is totally reblued. Probably heat bluing here in the US.

02-06-2009, 09:10 PM	#14
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Max, All Imperial era Lugers, both DWM and Erfurt, were rust blued with small parts in straw. The process required that the interior of the pistol stay in the "white". A quick perusal of your photos indicated a 1916 DWM Luger with small parts blued and all interior surfaces blued. These two factors would indicate a gun that had been completely and improperly reblued.

02-06-2009, 09:28 PM	#17
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	That's one reason gun inspection must be done on very good light source, better under sunlight. If I remembered right, stamps on barrel should show halo. Picture taking is similar, but avoiding direct strong light on the gun, using red or sky blue as background, showing overall, edges, stamps, marks, and numbers. If George is right, this one gets me though.

02-06-2009, 09:40 PM	#18
revolverforums Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Some how this got off track, you guys are looking for a collector and want to point out any flaw you see or perceive for some reason. I paid 750 for a shooter and was just looking to see if anyone had any words of wisdom instead of attacking anything and everything. IT'S NOT A COLLECTOR. I thought I made that clear. Yes that site that allows the huge images, the guy that owns it has been in the internet forum business for several years longer then this forum has been around and I hear the guy has made pretty good money off being forward thinking and understanding that what is considered big today will be poor quality tomorrow. I heard one of his sites he built 6 years ago sold for stupid money because he applied that thinking when he started it.

02-06-2009, 10:07 PM	#19
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Max, I think what important is not a particular single gun, or $750, or it has flaw or not. What important is we know it's what it is. Refurbished, fine, we need to know why it's refurbished. Learn a little bit from every gun, to dig out more from $750 besides shooting fun. IMO.

02-06-2009, 11:05 PM	#20
revolverforums Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Alvin between my years in the military and just a small part of my own collection I have fired no less then 20k rounds including doing service on a 109 firing 155mm howitzers. I consider these to be childs play. This site has some very good information on it, it also has a problem and IMHO the reason it hasn't grown and never will. Have a good day. I still prefer things that go around, they always go bang.