Identification of DWM Luger

DocDave · 03-28-2012, 08:44 PM

I have acquired a Luger that I was told was made in 1930 and is Commercial. It has the DWN on the toggle and is serial number 4051 with parts that have 51 on them. There are no other marks with the exception of it says ' Germany" by the serial number and has a small mark by the serial number I can't identify .

It is in excellent condition but has no " N" for Nitro.

On the serial number on the barrel, the 4051 the 4 looks like it has a 1 or L stamped over the 4 or the 4 is over this mark.

Can anyone tell me anything about this weapon? What kind of 9 mm shell can I shoot out of it without the " N" on it.

Any help would be appreciated

alanint · 03-28-2012, 09:13 PM

Welcome to the forum, Doc!
As you will hear often on the site, little can be determined about your pistol without posting extensive photos. Several good overall shots and close ups of all markings will help the site's experts accurately identify your pistol.

lugersrkewl · 03-28-2012, 09:19 PM

if its commercial its probably not 9mm

DocDave · 03-28-2012, 09:55 PM

Thanks. Its definitly 9 mm. No date on pistol but with the DWM marking and matched serial numbers it must be at least pre 1934.
My understanding is that with the word " Germany" on it it was meant for exporting outside of Germany.
The only other marking is Secured written in German under the safety.
I would like to fire it at least once but am not sure its safe to do so without the " N" marking

TheRomanhistorian · 03-28-2012, 10:07 PM

For 9mm, many of us use the Winchester White Box ammunition for 9mm 115 FMJ (note, don't use NATO or military spec ammunition). The Winchester ammunition is generally well received here for plinking purposes but I have heard that our European colleagues use Sellier and Bellot 124 grain FMJ. I'm going to be testing some 124 grain FMJ Truncated Cone here from Fiocchi but the key is that you don't wish to use any 'hot' ammo in a Luger.

I take it then you've already confirmed (pencil test or whatever) that it is 9mm then? Welcome aboard by the way, Doc.

alanint · 03-28-2012, 10:16 PM

The word "secured" in english? under the safety is unusual. As always, photos would help greatly!

lugersrkewl · 03-28-2012, 10:54 PM

In regards to the pencil test. I have a mid 20 I believe (dont have weimer era) alphabet and I dont know if its a certain brand of pencil youre supposed to use but the one I used drops down the barrel eraser first easily. I have inspected the bore and it looks above average as far as wear. The rifling is very visible and minor frosting is really all thats not just fine with barrel.

As far as a nitro proof, not being an expert I am still confident that dwm or mauser did not produce a non smokeless powder cartridge luger , ever.

DocDave · 03-29-2012, 09:41 AM

Thank you TheRomanHistorian, I appreciate the info on the ammunition. I may never actually fire the weapon but wanted to know what might work if I do. Carpe diem!

alanint, my appologies for the confusion, under the saftey it says' Gesichert" which I believe means secured.

Lugersrkewl this is the first Luger I have owned and am simply becoming fascinated by the history and variety. I thought that the weapon needed to have a " N" on it to show that it had been inspected for smokeless powder assuming that if it didn't one could not use smokeless powder. It may be the wrong conclusion I have come to.

DocDave · 03-29-2012, 02:16 PM

Lugersrkewl, I will post some photos as soon as I figure out how.

I am on my farm in Indiana and still use a rotory phone!

DocDave · 05-12-2012, 02:57 PM

Hopefully someone might be able to help. I fired a standard Winchester 9 mm 9 x 19 shell twice witgh my Luger and the next shell would only fit half way into the chamber. It is as though the chanber slightly contracted. I now can not slide another 9mm into the chammber. It only fits about halfway.

I thought maybe a 9 mm 9 x 18 might work but I understand the shell is actually larger.

Any advice. I really want to fire this .

Thanks

Dave

alanint · 05-12-2012, 03:14 PM

You may have sheared off a 9mm case in the chamber. If so, the case is stuck to the chamber wall and will not allow you to chamber another round.

Considering that you already fired 2 9mm rounds through the gun I'm assuming it is indeed, a 9mm. But again I have to ask; ARE YOU SURE this is a 9mm gun?? It might be a wildcat other than .30 Luger.

rhuff · 05-12-2012, 04:18 PM

Another possibility is if the second round was a squib round, and the bullet(projectile) did not clear the barrel, and is stuck in the barrel not allowing another cartridge to fully chamber. This is a strange situation. By breaking down the Luger, you can look into the chamber and it will tell you what has happened. Keep us informed.

DocDave · 05-13-2012, 01:58 PM

Thankk you for the replies. I broke the Luger down and there is nothinh appaernet in the barrel.

When I slide a 9 mm 9 x 19 into the chamber about 1/8 to 1/16 will not go in so that it can fire.

The tolerances seem to just be too tight of our new 9 mm cartridges.

I tried Winchester and also Lellier and Bellot FWJ. Sometimes one or two will fire but then it jams.

I am curious if anyone else has experienced such tolerances.

This appears to be a DWM matched number luger but no date on it with serial number 4051.

Any other suggestions on what ammo manufatcurer I might try

Thanks again

Dave

DavidJayUden · 05-13-2012, 02:04 PM

Any competent gunsmiths or Luger guys in your area? I'd suggest showing it to someone who has "been there, done that".
dju

DocDave · 05-13-2012, 02:09 PM

Alanit,

I am assuming the Luger is a 9mm. It doesn't say on the handgun but as mentioned a standard 9 mm shell will fit into the chamber with about 1/16 of an inch that wont go in without really being forced into it then I can't get it out.

It just seems the tolerances are so close.

I can't think of any other ammunition that would be so close to a 9mm but who knows what was fored in it back in the 1920's

Thanks

Dave

Norme · 05-13-2012, 02:47 PM

Hi Dave, Forgive me for asking another obvious question. Have you cleaned this gun? Specifically, have you scrubbed out the bore with a bronze brush and a solvent like Hoppes #9? The chamber on 9mm Lugers is constricted near the end (it appears as a ring when you peer into the chamber), and is intended to form a gas tight seal. Your chamber may be fouled up. Good luck! Norm

padredan · 05-13-2012, 03:33 PM

Welcome to the forum and your first luger. As norm just pointed out clean it, then clean it some more, i am guessing you have tried the pencil test down the bore, but as we have pointed out , look in the chamber if it is stepped it is NOT a 9mm parabelum.

rhuff · 05-13-2012, 04:36 PM

I would like to see a photo of a 9mm cartridge in the chamber of your barrel(off of the gun), as I am beginning to think that perhaps DocDave is expecting the 9mm cartridge to go deeper into the chamber than where it normally resides in the chamber. In a Luger, the cartridge does not go fully into the chamber like some other pistol chambers exhibit. A 9mm cartridge will go nowhere near chambering in a 30Luger barrel, so that rules that scenario out. I would almost bet(I am not a betting man) that the 9mm cartridge is chambering in a normal way, but DocDave is not familiar enough with a Luger to realize this......I could be wrong, and have been many times before. If this is the case, then DocDave is merely experiencing a Luger malfunction of another cause, not a chamber problem.

DocDave · 05-14-2012, 01:28 PM

Thanks all for the reply. When I look down the chamber there is a small circular ridge where the rifeling starts. The begining part of the chamber is smooth.

I have really cleaned it.

Does anyone know if a 9mm cartridge will partially fit down a 7.65 chamber? I am really wondering if this is a 7.65 and not a 9mm.

Thanks

alanint · 05-14-2012, 02:37 PM

Doc, the chamber would have to be stepped for it to be a 7.65 and you would never have been able to fire a 9mm through a 7.65 barrel anyway. a 9mm will certainly fit part way down a 7.65 chamber, but not far enough for the bolt to close and the firing pin to set.

Your issue is something else.

03-28-2012, 08:44 PM	#1
DocDave User Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Identification of DWM Luger I have acquired a Luger that I was told was made in 1930 and is Commercial. It has the DWN on the toggle and is serial number 4051 with parts that have 51 on them. There are no other marks with the exception of it says ' Germany" by the serial number and has a small mark by the serial number I can't identify . It is in excellent condition but has no " N" for Nitro. On the serial number on the barrel, the 4051 the 4 looks like it has a 1 or L stamped over the 4 or the 4 is over this mark. Can anyone tell me anything about this weapon? What kind of 9 mm shell can I shoot out of it without the " N" on it. Any help would be appreciated

03-28-2012, 10:07 PM	#5
TheRomanhistorian User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 301 Thanks: 170 Thanked 88 Times in 64 Posts	For 9mm, many of us use the Winchester White Box ammunition for 9mm 115 FMJ (note, don't use NATO or military spec ammunition). The Winchester ammunition is generally well received here for plinking purposes but I have heard that our European colleagues use Sellier and Bellot 124 grain FMJ. I'm going to be testing some 124 grain FMJ Truncated Cone here from Fiocchi but the key is that you don't wish to use any 'hot' ammo in a Luger. I take it then you've already confirmed (pencil test or whatever) that it is 9mm then? Welcome aboard by the way, Doc. __________________ Michael Nos morituri te salutant - Supposed saying of the gladiators to the emperor ('We, who are about to die, salute you.') 'We are the lantern bearers, my friend; for us to keep something burning, to carry what light we can forward into the darkness and the wind' - From Rosemary Sutcliff's The Lantern Bearers

03-29-2012, 09:41 AM	#8
DocDave User Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Reply to Thread Thank you TheRomanHistorian, I appreciate the info on the ammunition. I may never actually fire the weapon but wanted to know what might work if I do. Carpe diem! alanint, my appologies for the confusion, under the saftey it says' Gesichert" which I believe means secured. Lugersrkewl this is the first Luger I have owned and am simply becoming fascinated by the history and variety. I thought that the weapon needed to have a " N" on it to show that it had been inspected for smokeless powder assuming that if it didn't one could not use smokeless powder. It may be the wrong conclusion I have come to.

05-13-2012, 01:58 PM	#13
DocDave User Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	9mm cartridge sticking in chamber Thankk you for the replies. I broke the Luger down and there is nothinh appaernet in the barrel. When I slide a 9 mm 9 x 19 into the chamber about 1/8 to 1/16 will not go in so that it can fire. The tolerances seem to just be too tight of our new 9 mm cartridges. I tried Winchester and also Lellier and Bellot FWJ. Sometimes one or two will fire but then it jams. I am curious if anyone else has experienced such tolerances. This appears to be a DWM matched number luger but no date on it with serial number 4051. Any other suggestions on what ammo manufatcurer I might try Thanks again Dave

05-13-2012, 02:09 PM	#15
DocDave User Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	9mm?? Alanit, I am assuming the Luger is a 9mm. It doesn't say on the handgun but as mentioned a standard 9 mm shell will fit into the chamber with about 1/16 of an inch that wont go in without really being forced into it then I can't get it out. It just seems the tolerances are so close. I can't think of any other ammunition that would be so close to a 9mm but who knows what was fored in it back in the 1920's Thanks Dave

03-28-2012, 09:13 PM	#2
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Welcome to the forum, Doc! As you will hear often on the site, little can be determined about your pistol without posting extensive photos. Several good overall shots and close ups of all markings will help the site's experts accurately identify your pistol.

03-28-2012, 09:19 PM	#3
lugersrkewl Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ussr Posts: 425 Thanks: 198 Thanked 75 Times in 58 Posts	if its commercial its probably not 9mm

03-28-2012, 09:55 PM	#4
DocDave User Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks. Its definitly 9 mm. No date on pistol but with the DWM marking and matched serial numbers it must be at least pre 1934. My understanding is that with the word " Germany" on it it was meant for exporting outside of Germany. The only other marking is Secured written in German under the safety. I would like to fire it at least once but am not sure its safe to do so without the " N" marking

03-28-2012, 10:16 PM	#6
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The word "secured" in english? under the safety is unusual. As always, photos would help greatly!

03-28-2012, 10:54 PM	#7
lugersrkewl Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ussr Posts: 425 Thanks: 198 Thanked 75 Times in 58 Posts	In regards to the pencil test. I have a mid 20 I believe (dont have weimer era) alphabet and I dont know if its a certain brand of pencil youre supposed to use but the one I used drops down the barrel eraser first easily. I have inspected the bore and it looks above average as far as wear. The rifling is very visible and minor frosting is really all thats not just fine with barrel. As far as a nitro proof, not being an expert I am still confident that dwm or mauser did not produce a non smokeless powder cartridge luger , ever.

03-29-2012, 02:16 PM	#9
DocDave User Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Lugersrkewl, I will post some photos as soon as I figure out how. I am on my farm in Indiana and still use a rotory phone!

05-12-2012, 02:57 PM	#10
DocDave User Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hopefully someone might be able to help. I fired a standard Winchester 9 mm 9 x 19 shell twice witgh my Luger and the next shell would only fit half way into the chamber. It is as though the chanber slightly contracted. I now can not slide another 9mm into the chammber. It only fits about halfway. I thought maybe a 9 mm 9 x 18 might work but I understand the shell is actually larger. Any advice. I really want to fire this . Thanks Dave

05-12-2012, 03:14 PM	#11
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	You may have sheared off a 9mm case in the chamber. If so, the case is stuck to the chamber wall and will not allow you to chamber another round. Considering that you already fired 2 9mm rounds through the gun I'm assuming it is indeed, a 9mm. But again I have to ask; ARE YOU SURE this is a 9mm gun?? It might be a wildcat other than .30 Luger.

05-12-2012, 04:18 PM	#12
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,270 Thanks: 2,686 Thanked 958 Times in 704 Posts	Another possibility is if the second round was a squib round, and the bullet(projectile) did not clear the barrel, and is stuck in the barrel not allowing another cartridge to fully chamber. This is a strange situation. By breaking down the Luger, you can look into the chamber and it will tell you what has happened. Keep us informed.

05-13-2012, 02:04 PM	#14
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Any competent gunsmiths or Luger guys in your area? I'd suggest showing it to someone who has "been there, done that". dju

05-13-2012, 02:47 PM	#16
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Dave, Forgive me for asking another obvious question. Have you cleaned this gun? Specifically, have you scrubbed out the bore with a bronze brush and a solvent like Hoppes #9? The chamber on 9mm Lugers is constricted near the end (it appears as a ring when you peer into the chamber), and is intended to form a gas tight seal. Your chamber may be fouled up. Good luck! Norm

05-13-2012, 03:33 PM	#17
padredan User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: louisiana Now, but from the Rebublic of Texas Posts: 937 Thanks: 429 Thanked 316 Times in 182 Posts	Welcome to the forum and your first luger. As norm just pointed out clean it, then clean it some more, i am guessing you have tried the pencil test down the bore, but as we have pointed out , look in the chamber if it is stepped it is NOT a 9mm parabelum. __________________ In this world nothing is free, except the grace of God

05-13-2012, 04:36 PM	#18
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,270 Thanks: 2,686 Thanked 958 Times in 704 Posts	I would like to see a photo of a 9mm cartridge in the chamber of your barrel(off of the gun), as I am beginning to think that perhaps DocDave is expecting the 9mm cartridge to go deeper into the chamber than where it normally resides in the chamber. In a Luger, the cartridge does not go fully into the chamber like some other pistol chambers exhibit. A 9mm cartridge will go nowhere near chambering in a 30Luger barrel, so that rules that scenario out. I would almost bet(I am not a betting man) that the 9mm cartridge is chambering in a normal way, but DocDave is not familiar enough with a Luger to realize this......I could be wrong, and have been many times before. If this is the case, then DocDave is merely experiencing a Luger malfunction of another cause, not a chamber problem.

05-14-2012, 01:28 PM	#19
DocDave User Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	7.65 vs 9mm Thanks all for the reply. When I look down the chamber there is a small circular ridge where the rifeling starts. The begining part of the chamber is smooth. I have really cleaned it. Does anyone know if a 9mm cartridge will partially fit down a 7.65 chamber? I am really wondering if this is a 7.65 and not a 9mm. Thanks

05-14-2012, 02:37 PM	#20
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Doc, the chamber would have to be stepped for it to be a 7.65 and you would never have been able to fire a 9mm through a 7.65 barrel anyway. a 9mm will certainly fit part way down a 7.65 chamber, but not far enough for the bolt to close and the firing pin to set. Your issue is something else.