Value of C&R FFL

12-12-2001, 01:04 PM

Friends, While registering my 1937 S/42 with the Military Police here on Fort Meade (an unfortunate requirement for service members who live on military installations), the clerk told me that the C&R FFL was not worth having. According to him, many dealers now refuse to honor the C&R - instead they require collectors to participate in the normal firearms purchasing process (waiting periods, background checks, etc.). Has this been your experience, or is this a problem endemic to Maryland? (Or was he just talking from his posterior area?) I've only used my license once, and it worked fine so I have no real experience with C&R validity. Also, is it even up to the dealer as to which licenses they honor or will the ATF back the little guy? (unlikely I know) Thanks.....Denny Cox

Thor · 12-12-2001, 01:09 PM

Denny, from what I am hearing,a C&R license is great for people that want to collect pre 1945 stuff (some are probably not included, check the List) The guys I know that have it use it alot. Basically nice not to have to go through a dealer, saves you time and money. You have to do a very minor book keeping but I think it is worth it! Nice to have a Luger shipped right to your door! Thor

12-12-2001, 01:28 PM

I agree wholeheartedly! For someone like my self interested in actively immersing myself in history (bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, click), the C&R seems ideal. I was just wondering if any other collectors have had their licenses turned down by dealers. Thanks for your perspective! Take care....

Lonnie Zimmerman · 12-12-2001, 01:31 PM

Denny; it is a godsend for me for me here in Oregon, no paperwork or de-facto registration.

Lonnie

12-12-2001, 02:54 PM

Note that many of the large wholesale companies such as SOG, Inter Ordnance and others actually list their Stuff as C&R elgible. I mentioned this earlier---it is worth while to obtain a copy of the C&R list from the ATF. Many,many guns other than surplus military prior to 1946 are C&R. Numerous military weapons made after 1946 are included such as French 1949?56 in .308 and 7.5, FN49 Rifle, and Yugo 1948 Mauser. Dozens of more recent commercial pistols and long guns. Model 12 Win. mfg as late as 1963, Ruger flatgate single six as late as 1956, Most all commerative colts and Win. and numerous others. I had FFL for more than 30 years and converted to C&R about 6 years ago. Have not had any problem with acceptance.

Russ · 12-12-2001, 04:37 PM

i agree with lonnie. ever since the laws were changed in oregon it has been great to have a c&r........ no more BS to buy a gun. i hade one guy back east turn it down.

Hugh · 12-12-2001, 04:46 PM

Denny, I have not had any dealer refuse to ship to me on my C&R. It has saved me enough in dealers fees to buy a Luger!

12-12-2001, 06:49 PM

I am of the opinion that the C&R licence is very worth having, and any "dealer" who does'nt honor it is no one I want to do business with anyway! I am of the opinion that the C&R licence holders tend to have more firearms respect due to the fact that they are all collectors(or should be). They tend to see their firearms as treasures rather than just a means to make a dollar. I'm not by any means saying that all FFL Holders don't respect guns or value them, but a C&R is specific in it's mandate that it is for the sole purpose of enhancing or upgrading ones collection. The problem lies in those few who have a C&R and go about the business of selling guns. This could wreck it for us all! I like the fact that if I see something at a gun shop in Illinois or Texas I can buy it if it's on the approved list. It's fun and has afforded me the privlege of adding to my personal collection without a middle man or risk of damage or mishandling.

Tim Canney

MikeP · 12-12-2001, 08:54 PM

I Have had good luck with my C&R through the mail.

A lot of independent dealers do not know how to handle them though. I can't blame them for being careful but they can be a hassle to deal with.

Big Norm · 12-12-2001, 08:57 PM

The state of Michigan does not recognize the C&R. If a Michigan resident buys a Luger in Michigan we must have a purchase permit first. This is state law and not federal. I understand that California is like Michigan in requiring a state purchase permit by Californians within that state. But this is only for residence of these states. If a resident from another state comes to Michigan with a C&R, then they are not required to have a Michigan purchase permit. If a Michigan resident goes to, say Ohio, then a C&R can be used to buy the Ohio Luger. But the Luger must then be registered in Michigan on return to Michigan.

Since you are military, then I do not know how they deal with your state residency. Your address on your C&R may play a role in determining residency. So your military advisor may or may not be correct. You will have to check with state law. These laws are not uniform.

Big Norm

Kyrie · 12-12-2001, 09:15 PM

Hi Denny,

It's a good deal

Here are a couple of URLs I think you may find of interest:

http://www.shelfspace.com/~c-r-ffl/

www.cruffler.com

Best regards,

Kyrie

Dok · 12-12-2001, 10:14 PM

you can use you C&R in MA without a problem, but you must register the gun within 60 days of receipt.

Big Norm · 12-13-2001, 04:39 AM

The one problem I have in Michigan is if I am on vacation and I happen upon some interesting Luger way up in the upper penninsula (UP), I have to leave a deposit with the individual who is selling the gun and then go all the way home to get a permit which has about a 10 day wait (for me, but in some communities it could take 30 days) and then I have to go all the way up north to pay for the gun and have the individual sign the purchase permit then come all the way home to show the gun to the police to get the actual gun permit. This all must occur within ten days of my taking the gun permit from the hands of the clerk at the police department. If the selling individual is an individual then this would be the procedure. If the individual is a licensed FFL dealer (not a C&R FFL holder), then the federal wait period gets involved.

I live in the Detroit area. So, depending on just where in the UP I purchase the gun, I could have a possible nine hour plus drive one way to the seller. Mailing might not be practical because of the 10 day limit from the time I pick up the purchase permit to the time I have to show the actual gun to the police department to get my actual permit.

Big Norm

12-13-2001, 10:48 AM

All, thanks for your insight into this confusing area of legal fog. As always, I leave my daily visit to the forum more informed and slightly wiser. Thanks....Denny

Dok · 12-13-2001, 04:34 PM

it does sound like more hassle than it is worth!

Big Norm · 12-14-2001, 04:48 AM

Dok,

your right. But in the southern lower the Lugers are pretty picked over. The UP might have something that is pretty interesting. You never know just where you will find a treasure. Since I am an auction freak anyway, I often hear of little known flea markets and I get an auction news letter. One successful purchase on a mint 1900 AE w/ideal stock more than paid for that news letter. At one auction, I just missed on an original Borchardt shoulder stock. I stopped bidding at $60 because I didn't know what I was doing and I thought that someone had rigged up a stock from a rifle stock.

Big Norm

12-12-2001, 01:04 PM	#1
Denny Cox Guest Posts: n/a	Value of C&R FFL Friends, While registering my 1937 S/42 with the Military Police here on Fort Meade (an unfortunate requirement for service members who live on military installations), the clerk told me that the C&R FFL was not worth having. According to him, many dealers now refuse to honor the C&R - instead they require collectors to participate in the normal firearms purchasing process (waiting periods, background checks, etc.). Has this been your experience, or is this a problem endemic to Maryland? (Or was he just talking from his posterior area?) I've only used my license once, and it worked fine so I have no real experience with C&R validity. Also, is it even up to the dealer as to which licenses they honor or will the ATF back the little guy? (unlikely I know) Thanks.....Denny Cox

12-12-2001, 01:09 PM	#2
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Value of C&R FFL Denny, from what I am hearing,a C&R license is great for people that want to collect pre 1945 stuff (some are probably not included, check the List) The guys I know that have it use it alot. Basically nice not to have to go through a dealer, saves you time and money. You have to do a very minor book keeping but I think it is worth it! Nice to have a Luger shipped right to your door! Thor

12-12-2001, 01:28 PM	#3
Denny Cox Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Value of C&R FFL I agree wholeheartedly! For someone like my self interested in actively immersing myself in history (bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, click), the C&R seems ideal. I was just wondering if any other collectors have had their licenses turned down by dealers. Thanks for your perspective! Take care....

12-12-2001, 01:31 PM	#4
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Value of C&R FFL Denny; it is a godsend for me for me here in Oregon, no paperwork or de-facto registration. Lonnie

12-12-2001, 02:54 PM	#5
Art Buchanan Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Value of C&R FFL Note that many of the large wholesale companies such as SOG, Inter Ordnance and others actually list their Stuff as C&R elgible. I mentioned this earlier---it is worth while to obtain a copy of the C&R list from the ATF. Many,many guns other than surplus military prior to 1946 are C&R. Numerous military weapons made after 1946 are included such as French 1949?56 in .308 and 7.5, FN49 Rifle, and Yugo 1948 Mauser. Dozens of more recent commercial pistols and long guns. Model 12 Win. mfg as late as 1963, Ruger flatgate single six as late as 1956, Most all commerative colts and Win. and numerous others. I had FFL for more than 30 years and converted to C&R about 6 years ago. Have not had any problem with acceptance.

12-12-2001, 04:37 PM	#6
Russ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Reading, PA. Posts: 628 Thanks: 2 Thanked 38 Times in 10 Posts	Re: Value of C&R FFL i agree with lonnie. ever since the laws were changed in oregon it has been great to have a c&r........ no more BS to buy a gun. i hade one guy back east turn it down.

12-12-2001, 04:46 PM	#7
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Re: Value of C&R FFL Denny, I have not had any dealer refuse to ship to me on my C&R. It has saved me enough in dealers fees to buy a Luger!

12-12-2001, 06:49 PM	#8
TIMOTHY CANNEY Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Value of C&R FFL I am of the opinion that the C&R licence is very worth having, and any "dealer" who does'nt honor it is no one I want to do business with anyway! I am of the opinion that the C&R licence holders tend to have more firearms respect due to the fact that they are all collectors(or should be). They tend to see their firearms as treasures rather than just a means to make a dollar. I'm not by any means saying that all FFL Holders don't respect guns or value them, but a C&R is specific in it's mandate that it is for the sole purpose of enhancing or upgrading ones collection. The problem lies in those few who have a C&R and go about the business of selling guns. This could wreck it for us all! I like the fact that if I see something at a gun shop in Illinois or Texas I can buy it if it's on the approved list. It's fun and has afforded me the privlege of adding to my personal collection without a middle man or risk of damage or mishandling. Tim Canney

12-12-2001, 08:54 PM	#9
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	Re: Value of C&R FFL I Have had good luck with my C&R through the mail. A lot of independent dealers do not know how to handle them though. I can't blame them for being careful but they can be a hassle to deal with.

12-12-2001, 08:57 PM	#10
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	MICHIGAN AND THE C&R The state of Michigan does not recognize the C&R. If a Michigan resident buys a Luger in Michigan we must have a purchase permit first. This is state law and not federal. I understand that California is like Michigan in requiring a state purchase permit by Californians within that state. But this is only for residence of these states. If a resident from another state comes to Michigan with a C&R, then they are not required to have a Michigan purchase permit. If a Michigan resident goes to, say Ohio, then a C&R can be used to buy the Ohio Luger. But the Luger must then be registered in Michigan on return to Michigan. Since you are military, then I do not know how they deal with your state residency. Your address on your C&R may play a role in determining residency. So your military advisor may or may not be correct. You will have to check with state law. These laws are not uniform. Big Norm

12-12-2001, 09:15 PM	#11
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Re: Value of C&R FFL Hi Denny, It's a good deal Here are a couple of URLs I think you may find of interest: http://www.shelfspace.com/~c-r-ffl/ www.cruffler.com Best regards, Kyrie

12-12-2001, 10:14 PM	#12
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	MA is easier than that (for a change)... you can use you C&R in MA without a problem, but you must register the gun within 60 days of receipt.

12-13-2001, 04:39 AM	#13
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Michigan Complications The one problem I have in Michigan is if I am on vacation and I happen upon some interesting Luger way up in the upper penninsula (UP), I have to leave a deposit with the individual who is selling the gun and then go all the way home to get a permit which has about a 10 day wait (for me, but in some communities it could take 30 days) and then I have to go all the way up north to pay for the gun and have the individual sign the purchase permit then come all the way home to show the gun to the police to get the actual gun permit. This all must occur within ten days of my taking the gun permit from the hands of the clerk at the police department. If the selling individual is an individual then this would be the procedure. If the individual is a licensed FFL dealer (not a C&R FFL holder), then the federal wait period gets involved. I live in the Detroit area. So, depending on just where in the UP I purchase the gun, I could have a possible nine hour plus drive one way to the seller. Mailing might not be practical because of the 10 day limit from the time I pick up the purchase permit to the time I have to show the actual gun to the police department to get my actual permit. Big Norm

12-13-2001, 10:48 AM	#14
Denny Cox Guest Posts: n/a	Thank you for your perspectives! All, thanks for your insight into this confusing area of legal fog. As always, I leave my daily visit to the forum more informed and slightly wiser. Thanks....Denny

12-13-2001, 04:34 PM	#15
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	in that case... it does sound like more hassle than it is worth!

12-14-2001, 04:48 AM	#16
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Re: in that case... Dok, your right. But in the southern lower the Lugers are pretty picked over. The UP might have something that is pretty interesting. You never know just where you will find a treasure. Since I am an auction freak anyway, I often hear of little known flea markets and I get an auction news letter. One successful purchase on a mint 1900 AE w/ideal stock more than paid for that news letter. At one auction, I just missed on an original Borchardt shoulder stock. I stopped bidding at $60 because I didn't know what I was doing and I thought that someone had rigged up a stock from a rifle stock. Big Norm