Help NEEDED...

kidvett · 07-02-2002, 12:09 PM

During a trip out of town this week end I came across a 1918 DWM with what I think are BRITISH PROOFS MARKS? Description as follows:

Standard matching DWM 1918 dated MILITARY P-08
All blue ( salt reblued ) no strawed parts
Proofmarks: *
BNP
( small circle on top of capital BNP letters )
on most parts including: breechblock, toggle & rear of frame ( possibly other parts I didnt see as I looked at it quickly...)

Chamber marked 1918 with *
BNP on top of the date

Under the barrel are some British markings ( by memory...) 9mm 7.52 TONS PER SQUARE *
BNP

plus some little CROWNS and letters in circle...

Having previously seen British weapons before I know those markings are genuine BRITISH.....I went through my limited library but I cannot find information on this LUGER....

Story is that it was purchased in Europe a while back by a CANADIAN AIR FORCE Pilot posted in GERMANY....

Please help ID this LUGER....

Thank you,

kidvett [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

kidvett · 07-02-2002, 12:25 PM

More info:

Exact markings under the barrel are:

1st line: * 9MM P 752
2nd line: BNP 9.5 TONS PER '

then a circle with a crown and 3 under it

Johnny Peppers · 07-02-2002, 12:40 PM

The markings are British commercial proofs. Any weapon not made in England is required by British Proof Law to be sent through a proof house before it can be sold commercially. The proofs have nothing to do with it's military service; just that it was sold at one time in England on the commercial market. The 752 is .752 which is the case length. The crown over a circle probably has either an intertwined GP for the London Proof House, or a BP for the Birmingham Proof House. Does the pistol also have NOT ENGLISH MAKE on it somewhere as it sounds like it was proofed under the rules of proof of 1925-1955.

kidvett · 07-02-2002, 01:22 PM

I did not see any NOT ENGLISH MAKE markings on the pistol.

Does this pistol has any specific collector interest as it is or is it just another standard run of the mill 1918 DWM.....

kidvett

Johnny Peppers · 07-02-2002, 01:33 PM

I would not attach any collector interest to the British proofs, and in fact had rather not have them on the pistol. As stated in the original post, they have nothing to do with it's military past. More than likely the pistol was bought by an arms dealer headquartered in England, and the proofs were applied in preparation for putting them on the commercial market.

Aaron · 07-02-2002, 03:43 PM

All kinds of Lugers found their way to Great Britain after WWI, and these invariably received the British proofs. If these Lugers are in decent condition, the British markings usually restrict them to just shooter status and their collectible interest is greatly reduced, unless a rare pistol is encountered with these markings. I have never seen a WWII era Luger with these proofs, so I must assume this importation must have been discontinued after the early post WWI years.

Doubs · 07-02-2002, 06:12 PM

At one time all non-British made firearms were required to be prooved by one of the Proof Houses and so marked. About 1960 my father bought a new-in-the-box 1911A1 Colt from "Ye Olde Hunter" for $39.95. Made in 1943, it carries British proof marks and was part of the Lend Lease material sent to Britain during WW2.

Exactly when this practice stopped, I'm not certain because ALL US-made firearms sold in Britain are still required to pass their Proof Houses. That's because we, as a nation, do not require our guns to pass proof. All European proofs with the exception of Russia are now accepted by Britain as valid without going through their houses. I think quality control issues with Russian guns are a problem so all Russian guns must be proved. Large numbers of Russian shotguns are sold in Britain each year and are excellent value.

Johnny Peppers · 07-02-2002, 07:21 PM

The weapons sent to England under the Lend-Lease Act were not proofed as long as they remained property of the British military. They were proofed only after being released by the military in preparation for commercial sale. It is not uncommon to find an M1 Rifle made in the mid 1950's with British proofs.

Pete Ebbink · 07-03-2002, 08:25 PM

Hello Aaron,

I do have a '41 byf "Black Widow" (from WWII) that is full of British proof marks including :

1. Not English Make, on right side frame rail.
2. Crown/GP encircled with NP, on barrel.
3. 4-5 Crown/V encircled over many parts including barrel, right ear, on both top surfaces of toggle links, and top of breechlock.

On the old Forum, you can do a search on "Black Widow" and read when I was asking members for help to ID these British proof marks.

From the previous owner (not the dealer) I learned my BW came from England to the States in the 1950's...

I am not one to rebute whether such British markings detract from my luger's value or not. I have come to "love" them and would not want a BW without them...they thrust me into quite a learning curve hunting down their origins.

<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Doubs · 07-03-2002, 09:18 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Johnny Peppers:
<strong>The weapons sent to England under the Lend-Lease Act were not proofed as long as they remained property of the British military. They were proofed only after being released by the military in preparation for commercial sale.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That is correct and I should have made that clear in my post. Sorry if I gave the incorrect impression that Lend Lease weapons were routinely prooved by the British.

MikeP · 07-03-2002, 09:34 PM

I have a 42 BYF portugese contract rig with Brit proofs. Apparantly these guns were sold by Portugal to a dealer in GB who sold them in the
U S

kidvett · 07-03-2002, 11:15 PM

I guess then that this particular piece ( 1918 DWM British Proofs ) could find it's place in a WWI Collection....as an example of the BRITISH PROOFING SYSTEM.... [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

kidvett

Pete Ebbink · 07-07-2002, 07:56 PM

Hey Kidvett,

Here's a photo of the top of my '41 byf Black Widow; with its "Crown/V encircled" British proof house marks... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Aaron · 07-07-2002, 08:12 PM

Thanks Pete, for teaching me something I didn't know before. The next question is, what other Axis pistols have been encountered with British proofs?

Edward Tinker · 07-07-2002, 10:38 PM

Aaron, I can't give you a researched answer, but I can give you a educated guess. ANY gun released or that passed through the publics hands is required to have British Proofs. So those that were from the Lend Lease Gun Program and returned to America would not be marked, but those guns that were sold or released to the public or for sale would be required to have markings stamped on them.

Johnny or others, that is correct?

kidvett · 07-09-2002, 03:52 PM

Thanks Pete,

I'll try to post some PICS of those BRITISH ( BMP ) PROOFMARKS when I do get a hold af that LUGER [img]smile.gif[/img]

kidvett [img]cool.gif[/img]

Johnny Peppers · 07-09-2002, 07:59 PM

The requirement for the foreign weapon to be stamped NOT ENGLISH MAKE was not discontinued until 1955. Several changes in the proof laws were instituted in 1955, and this was one of them. To my knowledge, none of the small arms sent to England under the Lend-Lease Act were returned to the US Government. All were apparently released by the British government for commercial sale. A few 1911A1 pistols will be found with the Canadian Broad Arrow C property mark in addition to the British Proofs. At the end of WWII they were sold as surplus to a British small arms dealer, sent to England, proofed, and returned to the commercial market in the US.

George Anderson · 07-15-2002, 10:30 PM

I have come across a number of WWI military issue lugers that were Brit proofed on the barrel and some that were BNP marked as well. For some years I owned a 1917 LP08 that was Brit proofed on the bottum of the barrel.

First thing to consider...what were Brit National laws concerning private pistol ownership on 1918 and what were they in 1945? I have assumed that those Imperial pistols that I have come across were Tommy booty after WWI.

As for when these pistols were proofed by the Brit government, I understand that not just a few WWI German pistols were drafted into service after Sept 1939. Why would we be discussing Lend Lease and NRA donations during WWII and think that personal Brit guns were not also drafted?

Hell, the Brits can't even own pistols now unless they're locked up with the municipal hall monitor.

Herb · 07-16-2002, 03:17 PM

Tacfoley, your comment made me think of the beautiful Casino at Baden-Baden Germany. Only people with a non-German Passport are allowed to enter, strange. Sort of like the Mormon church, non-church members can't get into the Temples either, wonder what is in there that has to be kept hidden from us infidels?

Johnny Peppers · 07-16-2002, 09:07 PM

Terry,
Most of the Lend-Lease weapons were released after 1955, but the 1911A1 pistols that were released prior to 1955 have the release date in addition to the NOT ENGLISH MAKE stamped into the frame. In tiny letters they were stamped RELEASED BRITISH GOVT. 1952.

07-02-2002, 12:09 PM	#1
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Help NEEDED... During a trip out of town this week end I came across a 1918 DWM with what I think are BRITISH PROOFS MARKS? Description as follows: Standard matching DWM 1918 dated MILITARY P-08 All blue ( salt reblued ) no strawed parts Proofmarks: * BNP ( small circle on top of capital BNP letters ) on most parts including: breechblock, toggle & rear of frame ( possibly other parts I didnt see as I looked at it quickly...) Chamber marked 1918 with * BNP on top of the date Under the barrel are some British markings ( by memory...) 9mm 7.52 TONS PER SQUARE * BNP plus some little CROWNS and letters in circle... Having previously seen British weapons before I know those markings are genuine BRITISH.....I went through my limited library but I cannot find information on this LUGER.... Story is that it was purchased in Europe a while back by a CANADIAN AIR FORCE Pilot posted in GERMANY.... Please help ID this LUGER.... Thank you, kidvett [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

07-07-2002, 10:38 PM	#15
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,910 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Aaron, I can't give you a researched answer, but I can give you a educated guess. ANY gun released or that passed through the publics hands is required to have British Proofs. So those that were from the Lend Lease Gun Program and returned to America would not be marked, but those guns that were sold or released to the public or for sale would be required to have markings stamped on them. Johnny or others, that is correct? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-16-2002, 03:17 PM	#19
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Tacfoley, your comment made me think of the beautiful Casino at Baden-Baden Germany. Only people with a non-German Passport are allowed to enter, strange. Sort of like the Mormon church, non-church members can't get into the Temples either, wonder what is in there that has to be kept hidden from us infidels? __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

07-02-2002, 12:25 PM	#2
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	More info: Exact markings under the barrel are: 1st line: * 9MM P 752 2nd line: BNP 9.5 TONS PER ' then a circle with a crown and 3 under it

07-02-2002, 12:40 PM	#3
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	The markings are British commercial proofs. Any weapon not made in England is required by British Proof Law to be sent through a proof house before it can be sold commercially. The proofs have nothing to do with it's military service; just that it was sold at one time in England on the commercial market. The 752 is .752 which is the case length. The crown over a circle probably has either an intertwined GP for the London Proof House, or a BP for the Birmingham Proof House. Does the pistol also have NOT ENGLISH MAKE on it somewhere as it sounds like it was proofed under the rules of proof of 1925-1955.

07-02-2002, 01:22 PM	#4
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	I did not see any NOT ENGLISH MAKE markings on the pistol. Does this pistol has any specific collector interest as it is or is it just another standard run of the mill 1918 DWM..... kidvett

07-02-2002, 01:33 PM	#5
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I would not attach any collector interest to the British proofs, and in fact had rather not have them on the pistol. As stated in the original post, they have nothing to do with it's military past. More than likely the pistol was bought by an arms dealer headquartered in England, and the proofs were applied in preparation for putting them on the commercial market.

07-02-2002, 03:43 PM	#6
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	All kinds of Lugers found their way to Great Britain after WWI, and these invariably received the British proofs. If these Lugers are in decent condition, the British markings usually restrict them to just shooter status and their collectible interest is greatly reduced, unless a rare pistol is encountered with these markings. I have never seen a WWII era Luger with these proofs, so I must assume this importation must have been discontinued after the early post WWI years.

07-02-2002, 06:12 PM	#7
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,614 Times in 525 Posts	At one time all non-British made firearms were required to be prooved by one of the Proof Houses and so marked. About 1960 my father bought a new-in-the-box 1911A1 Colt from "Ye Olde Hunter" for $39.95. Made in 1943, it carries British proof marks and was part of the Lend Lease material sent to Britain during WW2. Exactly when this practice stopped, I'm not certain because ALL US-made firearms sold in Britain are still required to pass their Proof Houses. That's because we, as a nation, do not require our guns to pass proof. All European proofs with the exception of Russia are now accepted by Britain as valid without going through their houses. I think quality control issues with Russian guns are a problem so all Russian guns must be proved. Large numbers of Russian shotguns are sold in Britain each year and are excellent value.

07-02-2002, 07:21 PM	#8
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	The weapons sent to England under the Lend-Lease Act were not proofed as long as they remained property of the British military. They were proofed only after being released by the military in preparation for commercial sale. It is not uncommon to find an M1 Rifle made in the mid 1950's with British proofs.

07-03-2002, 08:25 PM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Aaron, I do have a '41 byf "Black Widow" (from WWII) that is full of British proof marks including : 1. Not English Make, on right side frame rail. 2. Crown/GP encircled with NP, on barrel. 3. 4-5 Crown/V encircled over many parts including barrel, right ear, on both top surfaces of toggle links, and top of breechlock. On the old Forum, you can do a search on "Black Widow" and read when I was asking members for help to ID these British proof marks. From the previous owner (not the dealer) I learned my BW came from England to the States in the 1950's... I am not one to rebute whether such British markings detract from my luger's value or not. I have come to "love" them and would not want a BW without them...they thrust me into quite a learning curve hunting down their origins. <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

07-03-2002, 09:18 PM	#10
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,614 Times in 525 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Johnny Peppers: <strong>The weapons sent to England under the Lend-Lease Act were not proofed as long as they remained property of the British military. They were proofed only after being released by the military in preparation for commercial sale.</strong><hr></blockquote> That is correct and I should have made that clear in my post. Sorry if I gave the incorrect impression that Lend Lease weapons were routinely prooved by the British.

07-03-2002, 09:34 PM	#11
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	I have a 42 BYF portugese contract rig with Brit proofs. Apparantly these guns were sold by Portugal to a dealer in GB who sold them in the U S

07-03-2002, 11:15 PM	#12
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	I guess then that this particular piece ( 1918 DWM British Proofs ) could find it's place in a WWI Collection....as an example of the BRITISH PROOFING SYSTEM.... [img]biggrin.gif[/img] kidvett

07-07-2002, 07:56 PM	#13
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hey Kidvett, Here's a photo of the top of my '41 byf Black Widow; with its "Crown/V encircled" British proof house marks... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

07-07-2002, 08:12 PM	#14
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Thanks Pete, for teaching me something I didn't know before. The next question is, what other Axis pistols have been encountered with British proofs?

07-09-2002, 03:52 PM	#16
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Thanks Pete, I'll try to post some PICS of those BRITISH ( BMP ) PROOFMARKS when I do get a hold af that LUGER [img]smile.gif[/img] kidvett [img]cool.gif[/img]

07-09-2002, 07:59 PM	#17
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	The requirement for the foreign weapon to be stamped NOT ENGLISH MAKE was not discontinued until 1955. Several changes in the proof laws were instituted in 1955, and this was one of them. To my knowledge, none of the small arms sent to England under the Lend-Lease Act were returned to the US Government. All were apparently released by the British government for commercial sale. A few 1911A1 pistols will be found with the Canadian Broad Arrow C property mark in addition to the British Proofs. At the end of WWII they were sold as surplus to a British small arms dealer, sent to England, proofed, and returned to the commercial market in the US.

07-15-2002, 10:30 PM	#18
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,771 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	I have come across a number of WWI military issue lugers that were Brit proofed on the barrel and some that were BNP marked as well. For some years I owned a 1917 LP08 that was Brit proofed on the bottum of the barrel. First thing to consider...what were Brit National laws concerning private pistol ownership on 1918 and what were they in 1945? I have assumed that those Imperial pistols that I have come across were Tommy booty after WWI. As for when these pistols were proofed by the Brit government, I understand that not just a few WWI German pistols were drafted into service after Sept 1939. Why would we be discussing Lend Lease and NRA donations during WWII and think that personal Brit guns were not also drafted? Hell, the Brits can't even own pistols now unless they're locked up with the municipal hall monitor.

07-16-2002, 09:07 PM	#20
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Terry, Most of the Lend-Lease weapons were released after 1955, but the 1911A1 pistols that were released prior to 1955 have the release date in addition to the NOT ENGLISH MAKE stamped into the frame. In tiny letters they were stamped RELEASED BRITISH GOVT. 1952.