More BW Grips

Here are new pictures of two different BW grips.


You guys are going to have to decide which is which.


One of these Lugers I bought at auction. The other one came from Ralph Shattuck.


Mike




http://wsphotofews.excite.com/024/Mf/XB/iG/d547445.jpg

http://wsphotofews.excite.com/012/Ot/uT/gH/Uf22764.jpg

http://wsphotofews.excite.com/025/ou/Kv/zY/ei84178.jpg

[Hugh]

The ones on the left are off of a byf42, the ones on the right a byf41.


I'll try again for a picture of the outsides. While I think that the insides do show the left ones to be fake, the outer trim of the left ones better matches pistols pictured in Still's Third Reich Lugers. In hand inspection reveals the checkering to be virtually identical on all of the pictured grips.


Now is it possible that there were numerous vendors producing grips for Mauser? Each producing a slightly different variation?


Mike

[Aaron]

Personally, I cannot accept the fact that there is anything like a strong enough demand for BW grips that would encourage a counterfieter to go to all that trouble and expense of producing fake grips. There are many much more rare and expensive items to be reproduced. I think they are both authentic.

[Marvin]

MK,


I was just thinking about the multiple Vendors when I opened your posting. This may be a very viable answer to some of the change in small details on the grips. The only problem with this hypothysis is that if Mauser made approx. 120,000 Lugers in 1941 and the same in 1942 (Just rough numbers not exact) then if an averasge of 25% of these have the plastic grips, then there would have been approx. 30,000 sets made each year. In molding this material, it takes approx. 15 sec. to drop the mateial into the mold, 15 sec. for the mold to close, one (1) minute to cure the plastic, 15 sec to open the mold, 10 sec. to removed the parts, allow cooling while the operation begins again, 15 sec. to remove the flash and put into a box. This is 130 sec total to produce the parts. I would assume the mold would be a four (4) cavity mold making two (2) sets at a time. In 130 sec. they make two (2) sets of grips. With this, it would take 541.6 hours to make one (1) years production run, or 67.7 days based on an 8 hour day. My opinion is that there was probably only one manufacturer and he ran them on an "open machine" basis. This manufacturer MAY have been the same ones making the grips for the P.38, I don't know, but it makes some sense to do this since they are set up and have the equipment. All the change would be is the mold and the type material.


Now, all the above is a hypothisis only for discussion, but I feel that there were probably multiple molds for the grips and this could account for the minor differences in the grips.


For a "faker" to make this mold, the cost would be very expensive and you don't see these grips being offered as repros that often. To recoup his investment, he would have to sell a lot of grips and I just have not seen them on the market that much. Most of the plastic grips I have seen are not of that good of a quality and they can be spotted real quick. The color is not correct, the inside is not correct and most noticeable is that the checkering is not correct with defects.


Now, another question from me; why the screw threads on the inside? G.T.'s point on being able to remove from the mold is probably the correct answer, but there are ejection pin marks on the inside. This would mean the grips were molded with the checkering "up" and the inside "down". When the mold opens, the checkering would "hang" in the mold and the ejection pins would puch the parts from the bottom of the mold. If the threads, or screw, was part of the mold, then the operator would have to "unscrew" each grip from the mold. Not very efficient, but works well.


Another factor which is not in my small calculations above is the scrap rate. I would imagine that this would be in the area of 15-20% reject rate, so the above calculation would have to be increased by that amount


Sorry for the long post, but what are other thoughts?


Marvin

Mike, I feel that both types that are shown are original WW2 production, but made by different suppliers. The repros that I've seen and sold, made by either Vintage grips or NC ordnance, are more like your right-hand grips on the inside, but the borders on the outside are not as shiney as the originals and they are lighter in weight (different type plastic) than the originals.

[G.T.]

Hi Marvin! The multiple mold theory sounds logical, as does the threaded pin.....and I am in total agreement as to the high cost of accurate reproductions, I don't think I have ever seen a fake pair that was made from Baekolite, it's just to damn much work!! Plus the numbers would have to be there to make it feasible......I think grip weight, as Tom H. has stated, would be a definitive indicator of a grips originality......Good stuff Marvin! Interesting! till....later....G.T.

[Marvin]

Tom,


i think you are right about the weight being different. the Bakelite material used by the Germans is a much denser, therefore heavier material that a thermoplstic which would be lower cost to manufacture and not have the "shinier" appearance on the surface.


Marvin

[John D.]

Really an excellent post...!


Marvin Wrote: "...Now, another question from me; why the screw threads on the inside?"...


My opinion is that G.T. is most probably correct as the reason that they are there. I think Gibson makes reference to these as well, but went on to state that they were also used to prevent the loss of the Grip Screw on disassembly. I'll try to find that passage when I get home tonight - as it is an interesting sidelight (I wonder what his source was - or whether it was purely his speculation)...


Anyway - my question is more basic then "how" they were used. Rather - were these holes drilled and tapped after the molds were seperated, or rather, were these screw holes part of the molds themselves? G.T. - this may be up your area of expertise - but could Bakelite molding pressures actually conform to these screw threads without distortion?

[John Sabato]

I will have to wait until I get home to see them...


http://wsphotofews.excite.com


must have other content that is on my company no-no list. I wish there was some way to keep all the garbage off of the Internet, or at least restrict it to sites where only that stuff exists...


MK, are the photos too large to post on the forum server?


-JS

[John D.]

[John Sabato]

[Marvin]

John,


I feel you are correct in the use for the tapped holes. I will have to look at the threads and it will easy to tell if they are moled in or tapped. If molded in, they will not have sharp edges and if tapped, the cutting action will show up in the thread. I wonder if they ever used the tapped holes to store the grip screws; I bet they did like I do, just lay them in a safe place and hope they don't roll away to never-never land.


I hope G.T. can answer the question as I will be late gettin ghome tonight, help G.T.!


Marvin

If a soldat has to take his luger apart in the field, in a foxhole, under fire, where is a safe place to put your grip screws?


Those threads in the grips.


Mike

It's interesting that you mention P38s.

I know of at least three different grip type variations plus the final steel grip panels. The red type bakelite, a nearly black bakelite and black plastic.


Of the grips in the pictures, the ones on the left are heavier than the ones on the left.


My guess is that the all bakelite material grips were subcontracted out to various vendors. Costume jewelry makers for example.


Mike

[Patrick]

The threaded holes are metric - whereas the grip screws are English Whitworth 1/16 No. 30.

[Marvin]

MK,


Now this makes sense and you wont lose them!!


Marvin

[Marvin]

On the inside of the P.38 grips, there are stamps which are molded-in. The stamps contain a code for the maufacturer and there wer more than one during the war. This stamp also contains the codes for the material and filler used in the P.38 grip. What a shame they did not do this on the Luger grips.


Marvin