Arrived at my collection last week, Alphabeth DWM

[wolfganggo]

Good Morning Gentlemen
Last week i got “new blood” to my collection. After I was reeding the books for two years, I think to identify it as an “1920 Commercial” following Kenyon or an “Alphabet DWM” following C.Still.







Checking the Serial 8225n, Still relates this gun as an 1924 or 1925 production. Checking the Aluminium Magazin Base, I think it would be an 1925 production.

Will you confirm my opinion ??

..... to bee continued.

[wolfganggo]

Some points of interest I will display.
Wooden Grips, they match the gun, but only when we assume that man at the dies was an dyslexic. One is numbered 8225 (matching) and the other 8235. Make your decision, or if possible show me another way how this can happen. Also the “Screwdrivertool” is numbered 8235.
Maybe simply a moment of distraction, while setting the stamps ??

Has anyone documentation available about the production process of these old guns, any books to read ??





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Along with Kenyon, the gun should be serialized in commercial manner.
Correct, Sideplate and Lockingbolt are stamped hidden, but also, additionaly, both parts bear also the numbers in a military placement …..

Comments from the longtime collectors are welcome….




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The gun has overall matching numbers (including the magazine), when we accept the “laps of concentration” theory at the gip and tooling. Interesting to see the breechblock, here we find a with an “X” deleted old number (53), second the correct number (25), and an old Erfurt proof Eagle.
Was this gun, partly assembled from old surplus parts, Kenyon described this possibility in his book.

Any idea to this fact ???




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The holster is an old “Imperial one” with an inkstamp indicating affiliation to the “IR137” and an embossed stamp showing the production of this holster in 1915 by “Hans Römer – Neu Ulm”

I got all parts in bad condition, rusty, dirty and the leather was stinking like it was stored for years in an old stuffy gardenhouse. According to my information the owner of this gun died a few months ago, currentlyI am trying to get more information about this gun and accessories from his testamentary heirs
I will let you know, when reaching new information.
In my opinion this gun was bought between the wars from a private citizen, it was according to the treaty of Versailles an 7,65mm 3 5/8”” barrel version. It was not heavily used (good bore and less wearout at the contact surface between rear toggle link and frame).
After the times have calmed down, the gun was layed aside and forgotten, probably this year the old owner died and the legal heirs found the gun and sold it.


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Any ideas about the “P” at the magazine, also the screwdriver seems to bear an “P”




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Now i have some pix left for transmitting, here they are..






You can read the books, but you also have to get experience on live objekts. I like this forum, for me it is the best way of gathering experience, by having contact to you, the highly experienced collectors......
Hoping on replys to my post, to get additional information and knowledge

Regards from Austria
wolfganggo ....

[DavidJayUden]

Interesting how it shows both military and commercial style (location) of the numbering on the side plate and takedown lever. Is this common?
dju

[mrerick]

Hi,

Both your grips look like they are numbered "8225" to me... The tool isn't.

My ""m" block DWM Alphabet Commercial was made about 12,000 pistols before yours.

It shows none of the military style parts numbering yours has.

Also, I've never seen the C/N stamped in the middle of a serial number.

Could this have been done for non-export pistols?

Marc

[Ron Wood]

I have seen that "P" marking before sometime, but I can't recall when or what it meant. The gun is an alphabet commercial that was marked in the commercial style, but it has been reworked and marked in the military style so the receiver serial number was applied "around" the original Crown/N mark.

[Edward Tinker]

Ron, I like how they went 'around' the crown N, too often the stamp is right over it.

So, commercial that went into army at some point

I don't remember seeing a P like this before, and the only grips I remember seeing
with all 4 of the serial number is a Simson. Not sure I think its a simson rework, but anything is possible. However, the "P" makes me think that a unit had two of the same serial number, and the P was placed to make it stand separate?


ed

[Douglas Jr.]

Wolf,

I liked your new gun.
The 1920 decade is a fascinating (ad confusing) period for Luger pistols. I still miss some example of this timeframe in my collection.
Is it still chambered for 7,65mm Parabellum?

In addition, I would like to congratulate you for you photographing skills. Your pistures are real nice!

Greetings,
Douglas

[mrerick]

Is the holster marked on the back. If so, what is it's era?

Perhaps the best explanation of this commercial pistol is that it was "Drafted" and returned at some point for rework into a Military pistol.

The die stamped numbers on the pistol exterior look like the original DWM dies to me. Dies on the grips and bottom of the magazine seem to match in typeface and size. The typeface on the breech block looks different and could be later.

Marc

[Norme]

Hi Wolfgang, Could the P number be an Austrian Police marking? Regards, Norm

[wolfganggo]

Hi Norm
i dont think so, i bought it from germany .......

wolfganggo ....

[wolfganggo]

Originally Posted by mrerick

Is the holster marked on the back. If so, what is it's era?

Hi Marc,
The holster has no markings at its backside. Under the flap there is the "IR137" inkstamp and the "Hans Römer - 1915 - Neu Ulm" embossed stamp

see picture



regards wolfganggo ....

[wolfganggo]

Originally Posted by Douglas Jr.

Wolf,
Is it still chambered for 7,65mm Parabellum?

yes, still 7,65 para

regards wolfganggo ....

[wolfganggo]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

I have seen that "P" marking before sometime, but I can't recall when or what it meant.

Hello Ron,
when conjureing up the facts about the "P", pls let me know....
thx

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

The gun is an alphabet commercial that was marked in the commercial style, but it has been reworked and marked in the military style so the receiver serial number was applied "around" the original Crown/N mark.

I am completely confused about the numbering.
Besides an 1900 commercial, this is my only "privat" gun, so i have less experience in commercials and their numbering.

Keeping in mind, that, according to kenyon, an commercial receiver should have serialnumber stamped on the stop lug, i can't understand the time flow of events.

Let's presume, the gun is an alphabet commercial, then i should have "crown over n" proof left on receiver and "serialnumber on stop lug".
When undergoing an rework for military use, it should have now, "serialnumbers lefthand on receiver", but the serial on stoplug has to be also present.
But, there is no sign of an serialnumber at the stop lug...

Ok, ok, could be removed from the stop lug, but why should they do this, makes no sense, work for nothing.....

Ok,ok, while writing and thinking some things getting in my mind that would asset the missing number. The receiver could come from an other gun, with an other number, so i makes sense to rework the stoplug area to delete the old serial.

At this specific field i have to learn .......

regards wolfganggo .....