needs help with price on swiss luger.

Green57 · 02-03-2006, 02:50 AM

Gents,

I have a chance to pick up this swiss luger; however, I know nothing about them. so I've come here to ask for your help.

Could you please look at the pictures and tell me if this pistol is worth buying?

Does it appear to be in proper form?

Do you think its been reblued?

What is a fair price for this pistol?

Description and link to picts as follows:

Swiss Luger Parabellum made by WF Berne. Official manufacture under licence after the DWM completed its contract supplies. Model is a 1900/06 or 1904/24 depending upon literature used to describe these weapons.

If possible, you can look at the weapon with me. Only minimum wear and customs traces, minimum abrasion to the blue and straw.

Early model (serial number is no secret) 19213. Naturally inclusive grip caps + Barrel reception stamp. M+ and Swiss CROSS at div parts.

Due to the sharp edges and sharpness of all the markings I believe that this weapon was not taken in for overhaul purposes.

I have provided may pictures in order to show all the details perceptibly. The weapon finish (burnishing) looks better in person and is beautifully done.

A better looking "old" Parabellum you will not find, except for the Mauser replica models from the early 70s.

Here you have the possibility to acquire a historical original which, is in fine shape for being 80 years old.

Please look at the pictures here:

http://www.pixum.de/viewalbum/?id=2022578

Any help and opinions appreciated.

Thank you,

Green57

Edward Tinker · 02-03-2006, 08:55 AM

Hello Joseph and welcome. I changd the first part of your posting, we are definately a "g" rated site, so please keep that in mind

Also, please post pictures here in the thread, it is easy to do and there are 2 ways to do it. Inside the thread itself and upper right corner of the webpage. Is it in deutchland? Are you in america trying to import it? If you are not american, I must congratulate you on your english, it is very good.

Ed

Green57 · 02-03-2006, 12:20 PM

Edward,

Sorry for the the heading of the post, I did not mean to offend anyone. Thank you for changing it for me.

The pistol is in Germany.

I am an American stationed in Germany with the Army. I have jumped through all the hoops to be able to own a pistol in Germany so I was looking to buy a nice swiss luger. I really want one that has the cross in the sunburst. This one is more in my price range at the present time.

I did not want to post the pictures because there are so many of them, I think there are 37 pictures in the album of this pistol.

I will look into how to post just a few of the better ones.

Thanks,

Joseph

Edward Tinker · 02-03-2006, 04:05 PM

Excellent Joseph!

I was stationed in the Netherlands (Schinnen) for 7 years, so understand a bit!

Ed

Imperial Arms · 02-03-2006, 10:25 PM

Hello Joseph,

Based on the images in the album, the Luger appears to be genuine with its original finish. Most of the Swiss Lugers can be found in very good to excellent condition because the Swiss took good care of their guns.

If you ideally want an early Swiss Luger with a Cross in Sunburst, you will probably need to set aside between $4k-$11k depending on the model and its condition. For example, a M1900 Swiss in top condition will fetch about $4k-$7k.

Good luck,
Albert

P.S. Since you are in Germany, consider attending the gun show in Stuttgart which I shall be attending. You might be able to find a fine Swiss Luger on one of the tables. Usually prices are slightly lower in Germany than compared to the US.

02-04-2006, 09:56 AM

When and where is the show in Stuttgart. I would like to start going to gun show in Europe. But how difficult is it to get a gun back to the U.S.?

Imperial Arms · 02-04-2006, 10:21 PM

The ISA Gunshow-Messe in Stuttgart ISA Gunshow-Messe is between the 7th-9th April.

Importing a pistol into the US requires an ATF Form 6 which needs to be submitted by a dealer. It takes approximately two months to receive an approval.

In addition, you need a dealer in Germany to obtain an export permit for you.

If you need additional information, you can contact me at imperialarms@att.net.

Albert

02-05-2006, 09:24 AM

Thanks. A year ago I stayed at the U. S. Army hotel in Stuttgart. A good deal if you are retired military.

tudorbug · 02-05-2006, 10:57 AM

Joseph, having been stationed in Germany myself, I recommend that you read the posting by "Imperial Arms" aka Albert, carefully and thoughtfully.

Bottom line is you just don't put the pistol in your return shipment, either household goods or handcarried, and bring it back to the United States. The requisite hoops have to be jumped through and the pistol will probably have to be shipped from a German dealer to an American importer, such as Simpsons, with the usual expensive charges to do so.

Very kindly, David

Pete Ebbink · 02-05-2006, 11:21 AM

Don't forget about the "import" stamping on the gun as well...

Pete Ebbink · 02-05-2006, 11:24 AM

Green 57,

Based on the luger serial number, it was made in 1922 when the Swiss Bern arsenal made 2,130 lugers that year.

This luger is the Model 1906 W+F; otherwise known as the '24 Bern.

With the outbreak of WWI, the Swiss could no longer secure lugers from German; as all the production went to the German war effort. The '24 Bern was the first time the luger was made outside of Germany and the first time the Swiss made their own. It's production run started in 1918...(not sure why USA collectors did not call it the '18 Bern...).

If this luger is in factory original finish and all parts matching, I would think it would run the in $ 2500-3000 USD price range here in the USA. Pricing in Europe is usually much less.

Green57 · 02-05-2006, 11:29 AM

Thanks to all those that have responded. Getting a pistol that has been purchased abroad back to the States is not as hard as one would be lead to believe. I have already imported four pistols back to the states with no problems. I just wanted to know if the luger in the pictures was worth serious consideration. If everyone agrees with Alberts opinion I think this one appears to be worth while. Thanks,Green57

Pete Ebbink · 02-05-2006, 11:50 AM

Green 57,

From the photos, I would venture to guess this one is a Bern arsenal rework...which does not usually affect value much in the USA.

Here are my impressions :

1. The grips screws show much more blue wear than the remainder of the pistol.

2. The little pin on the top surface of the toggle knobs is blued. This is usually "in the white" with factory pieces (or a new "in the white" pin is used once the refinish work is completed and the gun is reassembled...).

3. There is no blue wear shown along the front, side edges of the barrel's muzzle. Such wear occurs when a luger goes in/out of those tight-fitting Swiss luger holster. Since this was a militay issue gun in use for some time, I would expect to see such wear patterns. Once the luger was sold, off by the Ordnance, it was probably redone and the new owner(s) probably did not holster it much.

4. The straw looks very new and fresh. You would typically see some wear along the right side of the trigger when the right trigger finger wraps around it.

5. Blue overall does not appear to show much/any patina or oxidation. A gun made in 1922 should show some...at least more than this one displays.

6. Ask the seller of the condition of the gun's bore. If worn and tired...things are not right. A gun with such a strong and shiney finish would typically not show much bore wear & tear. It would be difficult to shoot a barrel to the end of its life and not pick up more finish wear along the way.

7. Finally...in the photo of this luger (below)...the little knob protruding on the right side of the frame just above the trigger is usually strawed colored...as this is the far right-hand tip of the trigger's pivot shaft. It should be strawed on this right side...since the entire trigger is strawed. To be in the blue would mean that some cold bluing or other bluing was applied...does it not ?

Here is a photo I borrowed from the Simpson's LTD web site of another '24 Bern. This shows what I mention above in my comment # 7 as well as comment # 4.

Hope this helps...

Why not ask the dealer/seller to make a statement in writing to you if they think the finish is factory original or a rework ?

Green57 · 02-06-2006, 02:17 AM

Pete,

Thank you for your opinion on the pistol. After all the points you bring up I also think it was redone. After reading through some of the other posts it seems to be the general consensus that this is sort of the norm for most of the swiss lugers out there. Finding one that hasn't been through a little arsenal touch-up would indeed be a rare find.

The seller says that the bore looks like new (barrel replaced during overhaul?). He "thinks" the pistol has not been reblued because the edges and markings on the pistol are still in excellent shape. He stated that he had not had it redone, but could not say for sure because he had not owned it for the last 80 years.

I think I might let this one go and save and save and save my money and wait for a sunburst to come along. Thats what I'm really looking for. Maybe something will show up at the Stuttgart show.

Thanks to all who posted.

Green57

02-03-2006, 02:50 AM	#1
Green57 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 32 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	needs help with price on swiss luger. Gents, I have a chance to pick up this swiss luger; however, I know nothing about them. so I've come here to ask for your help. Could you please look at the pictures and tell me if this pistol is worth buying? Does it appear to be in proper form? Do you think its been reblued? What is a fair price for this pistol? Description and link to picts as follows: Swiss Luger Parabellum made by WF Berne. Official manufacture under licence after the DWM completed its contract supplies. Model is a 1900/06 or 1904/24 depending upon literature used to describe these weapons. If possible, you can look at the weapon with me. Only minimum wear and customs traces, minimum abrasion to the blue and straw. Early model (serial number is no secret) 19213. Naturally inclusive grip caps + Barrel reception stamp. M+ and Swiss CROSS at div parts. Due to the sharp edges and sharpness of all the markings I believe that this weapon was not taken in for overhaul purposes. I have provided may pictures in order to show all the details perceptibly. The weapon finish (burnishing) looks better in person and is beautifully done. A better looking "old" Parabellum you will not find, except for the Mauser replica models from the early 70s. Here you have the possibility to acquire a historical original which, is in fine shape for being 80 years old. Please look at the pictures here: http://www.pixum.de/viewalbum/?id=2022578 Any help and opinions appreciated. Thank you, Green57

02-03-2006, 08:55 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,912 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Hello Joseph and welcome. I changd the first part of your posting, we are definately a "g" rated site, so please keep that in mind Also, please post pictures here in the thread, it is easy to do and there are 2 ways to do it. Inside the thread itself and upper right corner of the webpage. Is it in deutchland? Are you in america trying to import it? If you are not american, I must congratulate you on your english, it is very good. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-03-2006, 04:05 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,912 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Excellent Joseph! I was stationed in the Netherlands (Schinnen) for 7 years, so understand a bit! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-03-2006, 12:20 PM	#3
Green57 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 32 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Edward, Sorry for the the heading of the post, I did not mean to offend anyone. Thank you for changing it for me. The pistol is in Germany. I am an American stationed in Germany with the Army. I have jumped through all the hoops to be able to own a pistol in Germany so I was looking to buy a nice swiss luger. I really want one that has the cross in the sunburst. This one is more in my price range at the present time. I did not want to post the pictures because there are so many of them, I think there are 37 pictures in the album of this pistol. I will look into how to post just a few of the better ones. Thanks, Joseph

02-03-2006, 10:25 PM	#5
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Hello Joseph, Based on the images in the album, the Luger appears to be genuine with its original finish. Most of the Swiss Lugers can be found in very good to excellent condition because the Swiss took good care of their guns. If you ideally want an early Swiss Luger with a Cross in Sunburst, you will probably need to set aside between $4k-$11k depending on the model and its condition. For example, a M1900 Swiss in top condition will fetch about $4k-$7k. Good luck, Albert P.S. Since you are in Germany, consider attending the gun show in Stuttgart which I shall be attending. You might be able to find a fine Swiss Luger on one of the tables. Usually prices are slightly lower in Germany than compared to the US.

02-04-2006, 09:56 AM	#6
RGARRETT Guest Posts: n/a	When and where is the show in Stuttgart. I would like to start going to gun show in Europe. But how difficult is it to get a gun back to the U.S.?

02-04-2006, 10:21 PM	#7
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	The ISA Gunshow-Messe in Stuttgart ISA Gunshow-Messe is between the 7th-9th April. Importing a pistol into the US requires an ATF Form 6 which needs to be submitted by a dealer. It takes approximately two months to receive an approval. In addition, you need a dealer in Germany to obtain an export permit for you. If you need additional information, you can contact me at imperialarms@att.net. Albert

02-05-2006, 09:24 AM	#8
RGARRETT Guest Posts: n/a	Thanks. A year ago I stayed at the U. S. Army hotel in Stuttgart. A good deal if you are retired military.

02-05-2006, 10:57 AM	#9
tudorbug Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 387 Thanks: 0 Thanked 40 Times in 29 Posts	Joseph, having been stationed in Germany myself, I recommend that you read the posting by "Imperial Arms" aka Albert, carefully and thoughtfully. Bottom line is you just don't put the pistol in your return shipment, either household goods or handcarried, and bring it back to the United States. The requisite hoops have to be jumped through and the pistol will probably have to be shipped from a German dealer to an American importer, such as Simpsons, with the usual expensive charges to do so. Very kindly, David

02-05-2006, 11:21 AM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Don't forget about the "import" stamping on the gun as well...

02-05-2006, 11:24 AM	#11
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Green 57, Based on the luger serial number, it was made in 1922 when the Swiss Bern arsenal made 2,130 lugers that year. This luger is the Model 1906 W+F; otherwise known as the '24 Bern. With the outbreak of WWI, the Swiss could no longer secure lugers from German; as all the production went to the German war effort. The '24 Bern was the first time the luger was made outside of Germany and the first time the Swiss made their own. It's production run started in 1918...(not sure why USA collectors did not call it the '18 Bern...). If this luger is in factory original finish and all parts matching, I would think it would run the in $ 2500-3000 USD price range here in the USA. Pricing in Europe is usually much less.

02-05-2006, 11:29 AM	#12
Green57 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 32 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Thanks to all those that have responded. Getting a pistol that has been purchased abroad back to the States is not as hard as one would be lead to believe. I have already imported four pistols back to the states with no problems. I just wanted to know if the luger in the pictures was worth serious consideration. If everyone agrees with Alberts opinion I think this one appears to be worth while. Thanks,Green57

02-05-2006, 11:50 AM	#13
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Green 57, From the photos, I would venture to guess this one is a Bern arsenal rework...which does not usually affect value much in the USA. Here are my impressions : 1. The grips screws show much more blue wear than the remainder of the pistol. 2. The little pin on the top surface of the toggle knobs is blued. This is usually "in the white" with factory pieces (or a new "in the white" pin is used once the refinish work is completed and the gun is reassembled...). 3. There is no blue wear shown along the front, side edges of the barrel's muzzle. Such wear occurs when a luger goes in/out of those tight-fitting Swiss luger holster. Since this was a militay issue gun in use for some time, I would expect to see such wear patterns. Once the luger was sold, off by the Ordnance, it was probably redone and the new owner(s) probably did not holster it much. 4. The straw looks very new and fresh. You would typically see some wear along the right side of the trigger when the right trigger finger wraps around it. 5. Blue overall does not appear to show much/any patina or oxidation. A gun made in 1922 should show some...at least more than this one displays. 6. Ask the seller of the condition of the gun's bore. If worn and tired...things are not right. A gun with such a strong and shiney finish would typically not show much bore wear & tear. It would be difficult to shoot a barrel to the end of its life and not pick up more finish wear along the way. 7. Finally...in the photo of this luger (below)...the little knob protruding on the right side of the frame just above the trigger is usually strawed colored...as this is the far right-hand tip of the trigger's pivot shaft. It should be strawed on this right side...since the entire trigger is strawed. To be in the blue would mean that some cold bluing or other bluing was applied...does it not ? Here is a photo I borrowed from the Simpson's LTD web site of another '24 Bern. This shows what I mention above in my comment # 7 as well as comment # 4. Hope this helps... Why not ask the dealer/seller to make a statement in writing to you if they think the finish is factory original or a rework ?

02-06-2006, 02:17 AM	#14
Green57 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 32 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Pete, Thank you for your opinion on the pistol. After all the points you bring up I also think it was redone. After reading through some of the other posts it seems to be the general consensus that this is sort of the norm for most of the swiss lugers out there. Finding one that hasn't been through a little arsenal touch-up would indeed be a rare find. The seller says that the bore looks like new (barrel replaced during overhaul?). He "thinks" the pistol has not been reblued because the edges and markings on the pistol are still in excellent shape. He stated that he had not had it redone, but could not say for sure because he had not owned it for the last 80 years. I think I might let this one go and save and save and save my money and wait for a sunburst to come along. Thats what I'm really looking for. Maybe something will show up at the Stuttgart show. Thanks to all who posted. Green57