X Stamped In Front Of Rec. S/N

ToggleTop · 09-01-2002, 07:45 PM

Anyone know what the X indicates that is stamped in front of the serial number on the receiver of this K-Date luger? I would appreciate any information you can give me.

[img]confused.gif[/img]

Toggletop and others, I shrunk the picture down a bit, if you want to see the large pic it is at http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/kdate1b.JPG hope that was okay, Ed <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

Doubs · 09-01-2002, 07:52 PM

Everything I've read or heard concerning the "X" of the type on your pistol indicates a Russian capture marking.

ToggleTop · 09-01-2002, 11:19 PM

Doubs,
In doing a little research myself I find that the "X" indicates a Russian import within the last 8-9 years. The pistol as you say was probably captured and stored in the Ukraine and was only recently imported. I think this particular pistol came through Canada and then imported into the United States of America where it really belongs.

Johnny Peppers · 09-02-2002, 12:30 AM

Has anyone else wondered why the WWII Lugers came back from Russia in such god awful condition, but the 1906 Russian contract pistols seem to have survived in immaculate condition?

conchojack · 09-02-2002, 09:45 AM

Toggle Top, I also have a P-08 with the X. I am searching the literature for a definitive reason. My Luger not only looks good, it is flawless in firing and accuracy.

Kyrie · 09-02-2002, 10:39 AM

Hi Toggletop,

No one really knows :-(

The minority of the recently imported (from the CIS) Lugers, P.38Ã¢??s, and Mauser Kar98k have a Ã¢??XÃ¢?Â someplace, and usually in front of the frame or receiver serial number. Pistols with this Ã¢??XÃ¢?Â mark were seen before the recent flood of imports on pistols that were never behind the Iron Curtain, so this mark is not unique to CIS firearms.

Speculation is that itÃ¢??s a CIS rebuild mark - but thatÃ¢??s just a guess :-(

Warm regards,

Kyrie

ToggleTop · 09-02-2002, 03:43 PM

Hello Kyrie,
I am from Tennessee and I am a little slow. Can you tell me what CIS stands for? I have seen it before and wondered what it stood for!

Herb · 09-02-2002, 04:07 PM

I recall reading somewhere that this a destruction stamping. Something was badly out of tolerance and these parts were to be melted down but a few of them went out in lunchboxes at the end of the shift. If I come across the reference I'll let you know. I have a mismatched Luger with an S/42 reciever # 8005 dated 1937. It has the identical 'X' in the same place. It is my shooter and so far I have had no problems with it. Perhaps when it was made the headspacing was off or something, seems fine now with #79 toggles. I bought it in Jan of 1985.

Stu · 09-03-2002, 08:35 AM

On the P38 forum it's noted that a reasonable number of ex Russian P38's have this mark. Speculation on that board leans towards it being applied as part of the rework process.

Just as an aside to Johnny Peppers; I've a 1941 byf that was almost certainly refinished in the Soviet black and it's in very nice condition; I suspect that a lot depended on the condition they were in when captured ?

Johnny Peppers · 09-03-2002, 09:59 AM

Stu,
As you stated, your pistol has been refinished indicating 0% original finish. Don't know if you have seen some of the 1906 contract Russians, but all seem to be 98% original specimens. I have a feeling that most of the damage to the captured German weapons happened after capture.

Kyrie · 09-03-2002, 11:26 AM

Hi Toggletop,

Ã¢??CISÃ¢?Â is the acronym for Confederation of Independent States. When the U.S.S.R. broke up the individual S.S. R.s were collectively referred to as Independent States, loosely jointed into a Confederation - hence CIS. In actuality it isnÃ¢??t really a Confederation in any meaningful sense. The only thing the individual states seem to agree on is a great suspicion of the Russians, and much mutual antipathy with each other.

Warm regards,

Kyrie

ToggleTop · 09-03-2002, 11:59 AM

Thanks to all for the great comments and information provided by everyone. It was gracious of you all to take the time to provide your information. I continue to find the Luger Forum to be an exceptional place to exchange the information we love.

Sincerely,
ToggleTop

Stu · 09-03-2002, 06:31 PM

Hi Johnny. I think I jumped to the conclusion you meant that they were in bad shape corrosion wise and mechanically. You're absolutely right in that there's 0% finish, (but what a great price and no worries about them being boosted [img]smile.gif[/img] .

To be honest I don't consider refinishing as 'damage' per-se; just removes serious collector value. I believe that a large number of captured weapons were processed regardless of wether their condition warranted it or not.

Having said that, the way prices are going and the uncertainty about buying good condition originals I can see them becoming very popular, I certainly can't afford to own the 'real' thing ! Mine even matches with the exception of the toggle pin and hold open which have had the numbers peened over.

I'm assuming the Russian contract you refer to was a purchase by them; looks like they took better care of weapons they had to buy themselves [img]wink.gif[/img]

09-01-2002, 07:45 PM	#1
ToggleTop User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: TN Posts: 297 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	X Stamped In Front Of Rec. S/N Anyone know what the X indicates that is stamped in front of the serial number on the receiver of this K-Date luger? I would appreciate any information you can give me. [img]confused.gif[/img] Toggletop and others, I shrunk the picture down a bit, if you want to see the large pic it is at http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/kdate1b.JPG hope that was okay, Ed <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> __________________ *********************** ToggleTop************* JustHappenToLoveLugers *************************

09-01-2002, 11:19 PM	#3
ToggleTop User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: TN Posts: 297 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Doubs, In doing a little research myself I find that the "X" indicates a Russian import within the last 8-9 years. The pistol as you say was probably captured and stored in the Ukraine and was only recently imported. I think this particular pistol came through Canada and then imported into the United States of America where it really belongs. __________________ *********************** ToggleTop************* JustHappenToLoveLugers *************************

09-02-2002, 09:45 AM	#5
conchojack User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: College Station, Texas Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Toggle Top, I also have a P-08 with the X. I am searching the literature for a definitive reason. My Luger not only looks good, it is flawless in firing and accuracy. __________________ Sir, not being informed to the highest degree of accuracy, I hesitate to articulate for fear I might deviate from the true course of rectitude.

09-02-2002, 04:07 PM	#8
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I recall reading somewhere that this a destruction stamping. Something was badly out of tolerance and these parts were to be melted down but a few of them went out in lunchboxes at the end of the shift. If I come across the reference I'll let you know. I have a mismatched Luger with an S/42 reciever # 8005 dated 1937. It has the identical 'X' in the same place. It is my shooter and so far I have had no problems with it. Perhaps when it was made the headspacing was off or something, seems fine now with #79 toggles. I bought it in Jan of 1985. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

09-03-2002, 11:59 AM	#12
ToggleTop User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: TN Posts: 297 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks to all for the great comments and information provided by everyone. It was gracious of you all to take the time to provide your information. I continue to find the Luger Forum to be an exceptional place to exchange the information we love. Sincerely, ToggleTop __________________ *********************** ToggleTop************* JustHappenToLoveLugers *************************

09-01-2002, 07:52 PM	#2
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,614 Times in 525 Posts	Everything I've read or heard concerning the "X" of the type on your pistol indicates a Russian capture marking.

09-02-2002, 12:30 AM	#4
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Has anyone else wondered why the WWII Lugers came back from Russia in such god awful condition, but the 1906 Russian contract pistols seem to have survived in immaculate condition?

09-02-2002, 10:39 AM	#6
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Hi Toggletop, No one really knows :-( The minority of the recently imported (from the CIS) Lugers, P.38Ã¢??s, and Mauser Kar98k have a Ã¢??XÃ¢?Â someplace, and usually in front of the frame or receiver serial number. Pistols with this Ã¢??XÃ¢?Â mark were seen before the recent flood of imports on pistols that were never behind the Iron Curtain, so this mark is not unique to CIS firearms. Speculation is that itÃ¢??s a CIS rebuild mark - but thatÃ¢??s just a guess :-( Warm regards, Kyrie

09-02-2002, 03:43 PM	#7
ToggleTop User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: TN Posts: 297 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello Kyrie, I am from Tennessee and I am a little slow. Can you tell me what CIS stands for? I have seen it before and wondered what it stood for! __________________ *********************** ToggleTop************* JustHappenToLoveLugers *************************

09-03-2002, 08:35 AM	#9
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 451 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	On the P38 forum it's noted that a reasonable number of ex Russian P38's have this mark. Speculation on that board leans towards it being applied as part of the rework process. Just as an aside to Johnny Peppers; I've a 1941 byf that was almost certainly refinished in the Soviet black and it's in very nice condition; I suspect that a lot depended on the condition they were in when captured ?

09-03-2002, 09:59 AM	#10
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Stu, As you stated, your pistol has been refinished indicating 0% original finish. Don't know if you have seen some of the 1906 contract Russians, but all seem to be 98% original specimens. I have a feeling that most of the damage to the captured German weapons happened after capture.

09-03-2002, 11:26 AM	#11
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Hi Toggletop, Ã¢??CISÃ¢?Â is the acronym for Confederation of Independent States. When the U.S.S.R. broke up the individual S.S. R.s were collectively referred to as Independent States, loosely jointed into a Confederation - hence CIS. In actuality it isnÃ¢??t really a Confederation in any meaningful sense. The only thing the individual states seem to agree on is a great suspicion of the Russians, and much mutual antipathy with each other. Warm regards, Kyrie

09-03-2002, 06:31 PM	#13
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 451 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Hi Johnny. I think I jumped to the conclusion you meant that they were in bad shape corrosion wise and mechanically. You're absolutely right in that there's 0% finish, (but what a great price and no worries about them being boosted [img]smile.gif[/img] . To be honest I don't consider refinishing as 'damage' per-se; just removes serious collector value. I believe that a large number of captured weapons were processed regardless of wether their condition warranted it or not. Having said that, the way prices are going and the uncertainty about buying good condition originals I can see them becoming very popular, I certainly can't afford to own the 'real' thing ! Mine even matches with the exception of the toggle pin and hold open which have had the numbers peened over. I'm assuming the Russian contract you refer to was a purchase by them; looks like they took better care of weapons they had to buy themselves [img]wink.gif[/img]