DWM Package Value and Education

oldiron1 · 10-27-2011, 10:49 AM

Hi Guys, I started this post in in the "New Collectors" area of the forum, and thought now knowing a little more about the Luger, that this would be the appropriate place for this thread.

I'm brand new to the forum, and the world of Lugers for that matter although I've always been interested in war era firearms.

I'm in a situation where my friend who owns the pistol and I are in the midst of a trade deal involving alot of different things and I know I'll end up with this Luger which I am most excited about being that it originally came from a collection that included a WW2 1911 that I have. I am especially excited about having this particular pair of pistols "reunited" for personal reasons. It would just make me feel better about the trade we're working out to know that this Luger package is worth something, even though I'll never sell it.

I've included a few pictures at the end of my rather long novel of a post. Here is what I know about the gun:

On the top is the DWM script/logo

I believe the serial number is stampted into the front of the frame, just in front/above the trigger guard. The number is 895. Under that number, stamped is GERMANY and under it looks like a cersiv lower case letter "L". All of the parts I've noticed have the number 95 stamped in them, so I'm thinking that it's a numbers matching gun. In two spots, I noticed a mark that looks sort of like a cursive lower case "n".

I did find, on the left front of the receiver and under the barrel, a marking that looks like a crown over the letter "N"

There is a butt stock lug. There is no grip safety.

The word "Gesichert" is behind the safety lever.

It has it's original .30 cal barrel that has a matching serial number which measures 3" from where the tappering starts to the front. There is no date stamped into it like many that I've seen.

The overall condition is very good. I'd est. 70%ish and after inspecting all of the parts have determined all of the parts being "numbers matching".

The kind folks here have helped me out tremendously in the other thread, by fairly posively determaining that the pistol is a "more common" 1923 Commercial Export gun by the serial number and the word "GERMANY".

Included with the pistol are:

Extra 9mm Barrel/receiver: The top of the receiver is marked with two dates: 1920, then below it, 1918. The barrel is 3 7/8" long. The serial number on the side of the receiver is 3173 with a matching number extractor. There is the german waffle mark stamp in it as well on the right side of the receiver. The bluing is very nice, as is the bore/rifling. The left side of the barrel is what looks like a crown over the letters "RC".

Mags: The mag in the pistol is all metal and unmarked. The second mag has the wood (I believe) bottom. The only marking I see is the letter "P" stamped into the side. Forum member MFC advised that the unmarked wood bottom mag would be correct for this pistol.

Black Plastic Grips: One grip has a small chunk taken out of it as the picture shows. I see no markings on either grips.

Wood Grips: These grips look great! I see no cracks/breaks/missing chunks anywhere. I also see no markings on either of them.

Ammo: The Winchester box looks very old. The Fiochi boxes don't look as old. All boxes are full.

Please let me know your thoughts....Thanks again for the help and education!!

glock30 · 10-27-2011, 11:08 AM

What is the question?

alanint · 10-27-2011, 12:02 PM

It's in the post's title.

He wants to know what we think the entire package, pistol, upper barreled reciever, spare grips, spare magazine and old ammo is worth as a package.

oldiron1 · 10-27-2011, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

It's in the post's title.

He wants to know what we think the entire package, pistol, upper barreled reciever, spare grips, spare magazine and old ammo is worth as a package.

Yes, I don't want to sell it, however I'd like to have an idea as to the ball park value of the entire package to know how good or bad of a deal I got on it and also for insurance reasons.

Also, I'm just eager to learn more about this pistol as this is my first Luger.

Thanks!

DavidJayUden · 10-27-2011, 12:20 PM

I'll ballpark it at $1000 for everything.
Now if you piece it out you will get a bit more, but if it was in front of me at this moment that is a bit more than I would pay.
dju

MFC · 10-27-2011, 01:40 PM

Others may give different amounts. Here's my value estimates...
Luger with original wood bottom mag - $800-$850
Extra aluminum bottom mag, if original - $100-$200+ (need pics)
Extra wood grips - $100-$150
Plastic grip - $50 -$100 for left grip if original
Ammo - $100-$125
9mm barrel and receiver $250-$300

oldiron1 · 10-27-2011, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFC

Others may give different amounts. Here's my value estimates...
Luger with original wood bottom mag - $800-$850
Extra aluminum bottom mag, if original - $100-$200+ (need pics)
Extra wood grips - $100-$150
Plastic grip - $50 -$100 for left grip if original
Ammo - $100-$125
9mm barrel and receiver $250-$300

Thank you MFC,

I appreciate your willingness to provide me your opinion of package broke out.

I have about $1500 into everything (trade value) and although I'm not going to sell it, I'm just glad that I paid (on the higher end no doubt) at least what it's worth.

A couple questions I just thought of:

What era were the aluminum bottom magazines used?

The extra 9mm barrel has two dates stamped (1920 & 1918). Why would that have been?

Thanks again!

MFC · 10-27-2011, 02:12 PM

I beleive Simson and Mauser started using aluminum bottom mags around 1930, maybe a little earlier for Simson.
The receiver has a date of manufacture- 1918. The 1920 stamp is a Weimar era property mark, not a date. I believe it is an Erfurt receiver. You mentioned it had a C/RC stamp, which stands for Revisions Commission. This stamp indicates a serviceable part that has failed inspection for non-critical tolerances or external flaws. The C/RC stamp approved the part for service.

alanint · 10-27-2011, 02:12 PM

The aluminum bottomed mags were phased in in the Weimar era, at roughly the same time that your barreled upper receiver. The upper is a 1918 dated piece. It could be an Erfurt manufactured receiver based on the Artillery sight notch, but only a closer inspection of the marking would confirm that it is Erfurt versus DWM. The "1920" is not a date but a property mark placed there by the Weimar Goverment to state that the weapon was in the inventory allowed the German goverment by the Treaty of Versailles.

oldiron1 · 10-27-2011, 02:23 PM

Thank you MFC & Alanint,

Interesting history behind the Weimar era marking.

I didn't realize 9mm was being used back in 1918 already.

The barrel/receiver does have a few markings on it, so I'll take some better detailed pictures and post them. This extra upper is as interesting to me as the whole pistol is!

ken d · 10-27-2011, 04:52 PM

The spare left hand wood grip is for a grip safety model.

Ken D

oldiron1 · 10-31-2011, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken d

The spare left hand wood grip is for a grip safety model.

Ken D

Thanks Ken, I do see the grip safety provision now on the back side of the grip.

oldiron1 · 10-31-2011, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

The aluminum bottomed mags were phased in in the Weimar era, at roughly the same time that your barreled upper receiver. The upper is a 1918 dated piece. It could be an Erfurt manufactured receiver based on the Artillery sight notch, but only a closer inspection of the marking would confirm that it is Erfurt versus DWM. The "1920" is not a date but a property mark placed there by the Weimar Goverment to state that the weapon was in the inventory allowed the German goverment by the Treaty of Versailles.

Thanks Alanint,

I do now notice the Artillery sight notch on the extra 9mm barrel/receiver that I have. I will take a close look at the markings as well as take some close-up pictures.

Did both Erfurt and DWM both manufacture Artillery Lugers in 1918? Is one manufacture more common than the other?

Thanks again!

oldiron1 · 10-31-2011, 08:26 PM

Well, I tried to take some decent pictures of the "extra" artillery barrel's markings, however I had a tough time getting clear/crisp pictures of the markings.

Below is what I found. It's a pretty decent picture of the multiple markings on the bottom of the receiver. I tried to get decent pictures of the side of the barrel but they didn't turn out very well.

There is a crown over what look like the letters "RG", then under that marking looks like crown over something, but for the life of me, can't figure out what.

The right side of the receiver looks like crown over a bomb and to the right of that mark, is the German Waffle mark over three letters, but I can't make out what letters.

Any input is greatly appreciated!!

Dwight Gruber · 11-01-2011, 02:57 PM

Please post sharper and closer-up pictures of the barrel and receiver marks. This is a very interesting ensemble, and there are several things to say about it, but the markings need to be seen clearly in order to be specific.

--Dwight

oldiron1 · 11-01-2011, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber

Please post sharper and closer-up pictures of the barrel and receiver marks. This is a very interesting ensemble, and there are several things to say about it, but the markings need to be seen clearly in order to be specific.

--Dwight

Will do Dwight, I will try to take clearer pictures tonight of the receiver/barrel and will post them.

Thanks again!

oldiron1 · 11-02-2011, 09:34 AM

Hi Dwight,

Unfortunately, it was dark by the time I got home from work last night and it's raining today, so I couldn't get any good photos outside. I tried to improvise the best I could with light, but I'm not very happy with all of the photos.

Below are the pictures I was able to get. I'll try to describe each of the markings the best that I can:

On the top of the receiver: Below the Artillery notch, is "1920", then under it, is the date "1918".

Left side of the barrel: Crown over "RC". Under, or two the right, is a marking that I can't make out. It almost looks like a gothic letter "B".

Bottom of the barrel: Serial number 3173, which matches the receiver and the extractor.

Right Side of receiver: The marking on the left looks like a crown over a bomb and to the right of it, is the german waffle mark with letters/numbers under it that I can't make out.

Bottom side of receiver (looking at it with the barrel pointing down): On the Lug, is the letter "P" and slightly above it and to the left is the letter "N" with a circle around it.

I see multiple other marking including: the number "3" below the lug turned on side, upside down letter "L", upside down triangle or letter "V". To the right of the lug looks like a bomb.

To the left of the lug is a marking I can't describe as it doesn't resemble a letter or a number. Above that marking looks like a very faint letter "M".

Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks again!!

10-27-2011, 10:49 AM	#1
oldiron1 User Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	DWM Package Value and Education Hi Guys, I started this post in in the "New Collectors" area of the forum, and thought now knowing a little more about the Luger, that this would be the appropriate place for this thread. I'm brand new to the forum, and the world of Lugers for that matter although I've always been interested in war era firearms. I'm in a situation where my friend who owns the pistol and I are in the midst of a trade deal involving alot of different things and I know I'll end up with this Luger which I am most excited about being that it originally came from a collection that included a WW2 1911 that I have. I am especially excited about having this particular pair of pistols "reunited" for personal reasons. It would just make me feel better about the trade we're working out to know that this Luger package is worth something, even though I'll never sell it. I've included a few pictures at the end of my rather long novel of a post. Here is what I know about the gun: On the top is the DWM script/logo I believe the serial number is stampted into the front of the frame, just in front/above the trigger guard. The number is 895. Under that number, stamped is GERMANY and under it looks like a cersiv lower case letter "L". All of the parts I've noticed have the number 95 stamped in them, so I'm thinking that it's a numbers matching gun. In two spots, I noticed a mark that looks sort of like a cursive lower case "n". I did find, on the left front of the receiver and under the barrel, a marking that looks like a crown over the letter "N" There is a butt stock lug. There is no grip safety. The word "Gesichert" is behind the safety lever. It has it's original .30 cal barrel that has a matching serial number which measures 3" from where the tappering starts to the front. There is no date stamped into it like many that I've seen. The overall condition is very good. I'd est. 70%ish and after inspecting all of the parts have determined all of the parts being "numbers matching". The kind folks here have helped me out tremendously in the other thread, by fairly posively determaining that the pistol is a "more common" 1923 Commercial Export gun by the serial number and the word "GERMANY". Included with the pistol are: Extra 9mm Barrel/receiver: The top of the receiver is marked with two dates: 1920, then below it, 1918. The barrel is 3 7/8" long. The serial number on the side of the receiver is 3173 with a matching number extractor. There is the german waffle mark stamp in it as well on the right side of the receiver. The bluing is very nice, as is the bore/rifling. The left side of the barrel is what looks like a crown over the letters "RC". Mags: The mag in the pistol is all metal and unmarked. The second mag has the wood (I believe) bottom. The only marking I see is the letter "P" stamped into the side. Forum member MFC advised that the unmarked wood bottom mag would be correct for this pistol. Black Plastic Grips: One grip has a small chunk taken out of it as the picture shows. I see no markings on either grips. Wood Grips: These grips look great! I see no cracks/breaks/missing chunks anywhere. I also see no markings on either of them. Ammo: The Winchester box looks very old. The Fiochi boxes don't look as old. All boxes are full. Please let me know your thoughts....Thanks again for the help and education!!

10-27-2011, 01:40 PM	#6
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Others may give different amounts. Here's my value estimates... Luger with original wood bottom mag - $800-$850 Extra aluminum bottom mag, if original - $100-$200+ (need pics) Extra wood grips - $100-$150 Plastic grip - $50 -$100 for left grip if original Ammo - $100-$125 9mm barrel and receiver $250-$300 __________________ Mike C.

10-27-2011, 02:12 PM	#8
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	I beleive Simson and Mauser started using aluminum bottom mags around 1930, maybe a little earlier for Simson. The receiver has a date of manufacture- 1918. The 1920 stamp is a Weimar era property mark, not a date. I believe it is an Erfurt receiver. You mentioned it had a C/RC stamp, which stands for Revisions Commission. This stamp indicates a serviceable part that has failed inspection for non-critical tolerances or external flaws. The C/RC stamp approved the part for service. __________________ Mike C.

10-27-2011, 11:08 AM	#2
glock30 User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Obama LAND Posts: 206 Thanks: 18 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	What is the question?

10-27-2011, 12:02 PM	#3
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	It's in the post's title. He wants to know what we think the entire package, pistol, upper barreled reciever, spare grips, spare magazine and old ammo is worth as a package.

10-27-2011, 12:20 PM	#5
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I'll ballpark it at $1000 for everything. Now if you piece it out you will get a bit more, but if it was in front of me at this moment that is a bit more than I would pay. dju

10-27-2011, 02:23 PM	#10
oldiron1 User Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you MFC & Alanint, Interesting history behind the Weimar era marking. I didn't realize 9mm was being used back in 1918 already. The barrel/receiver does have a few markings on it, so I'll take some better detailed pictures and post them. This extra upper is as interesting to me as the whole pistol is!

10-27-2011, 04:52 PM	#11
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	The spare left hand wood grip is for a grip safety model. Ken D

10-31-2011, 08:26 PM	#14
oldiron1 User Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well, I tried to take some decent pictures of the "extra" artillery barrel's markings, however I had a tough time getting clear/crisp pictures of the markings. Below is what I found. It's a pretty decent picture of the multiple markings on the bottom of the receiver. I tried to get decent pictures of the side of the barrel but they didn't turn out very well. There is a crown over what look like the letters "RG", then under that marking looks like crown over something, but for the life of me, can't figure out what. The right side of the receiver looks like crown over a bomb and to the right of that mark, is the German Waffle mark over three letters, but I can't make out what letters. Any input is greatly appreciated!!

11-01-2011, 02:57 PM	#15
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,894 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,290 Times in 426 Posts	Please post sharper and closer-up pictures of the barrel and receiver marks. This is a very interesting ensemble, and there are several things to say about it, but the markings need to be seen clearly in order to be specific. --Dwight

11-02-2011, 09:34 AM	#17
oldiron1 User Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Dwight, Unfortunately, it was dark by the time I got home from work last night and it's raining today, so I couldn't get any good photos outside. I tried to improvise the best I could with light, but I'm not very happy with all of the photos. Below are the pictures I was able to get. I'll try to describe each of the markings the best that I can: On the top of the receiver: Below the Artillery notch, is "1920", then under it, is the date "1918". Left side of the barrel: Crown over "RC". Under, or two the right, is a marking that I can't make out. It almost looks like a gothic letter "B". Bottom of the barrel: Serial number 3173, which matches the receiver and the extractor. Right Side of receiver: The marking on the left looks like a crown over a bomb and to the right of it, is the german waffle mark with letters/numbers under it that I can't make out. Bottom side of receiver (looking at it with the barrel pointing down): On the Lug, is the letter "P" and slightly above it and to the left is the letter "N" with a circle around it. I see multiple other marking including: the number "3" below the lug turned on side, upside down letter "L", upside down triangle or letter "V". To the right of the lug looks like a bomb. To the left of the lug is a marking I can't describe as it doesn't resemble a letter or a number. Above that marking looks like a very faint letter "M". Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks again!!