Death Head Question

Brandon · 06-11-2002, 10:36 AM

Hi All!
I know it is a topic of much controversy, but I want answers! Were Death Head Lugers ever associated with the SS? Is there any surviving production numbers or similar information? If the SS was such an elite organization why would they resort to using reworks? There are so many unanswered questions, I am hoping that someone can answer just a few of them!

Brandon

Frank · 06-11-2002, 11:14 AM

Hi Brandon, If you have a copy of Still's book on Imperial Lugers, see page 126. It gives you a pretty good idea of some of the possibilities. Since most if not all (legitimate) are WWI vintage, I would go with the theory of the "Totenkopf" Lugers were assigned to Flame Thrower Units, but that's just mt opinin!!! [img]wink.gif[/img]

Roadkill · 06-11-2002, 08:07 PM

The SS were not a part of the Federal German military system therefore their weapons and equipment procurement were outside of the standard
Wehrmacht supply. A good example is if George Wallace would have been elected president, then he elevated the Alabama Army National Guard to a status equal with and in many cases more powerful than the US Army. All officers would be political appointees based on prior support to George and answerable only to other appointees in the same system. Then they would start their own parallel prison system without the benefit of federal/state courts and staff it with appointes answerable only to GW. GW would take funds from the US Army for pay and weapons for his army. Throw in the "fog of war" and its very difficult to determine real SS weapons from others. Any gun of that era might or might not be. The SS swore allegience only to AH, not the government. He never, and with good reason,trusted the Wehrmacht hierarchy.

RK

Edward Tinker · 06-11-2002, 08:35 PM

Good analogy RK.

Brandon, from what I have read and heard, (besides Roadkills points), is that in ref to Lugers, everyone wanted to have an infamous SS weapon, so over the eyars most have been made up or look like them.

From previous discussions on the Deathhead markings, there has been a mini-concensus that some markings are fake and others are from pre-WW2 era and are markings for a unit, not the SS.

I just <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> don't know?

Roadkill · 06-11-2002, 09:47 PM

What I was trying to say and didn't do it well, was that the SS got their guns from everywhere they could. There is probably more of a chance that a CZ27 or a Radom or a BHP or a Star or an Astra 600 were used by an SS unit as much as a P38 or a Luger, simply because of procurement problems by the SS. I've read about the SS runes being on 98Ks and seen pictures of them but as far as authenticity, as Ed said, who knows?

RK

Herb · 06-11-2002, 09:59 PM

Another opinion. I feel that the death head (totenkopf) was never associated with the SS (Shutzstaffeln) or Defense Squadron Lugers. It has been traced as far back as 1741 when worn by the Death Head Hussars (Totenkophhusar) which were still in existence as late as 1912 and possibly later than that. The actual SS came into being by decree on 9 November 1925. There were two branches of the SS, the Allgemeine (General) SS and the Waffen SS. Nearly all of the Lugers found with the death head will be of DWM or Erfurt manufacture and will be dated between 1915 and 1918. There is supposedly an exception to this found in Costanzo's reference and that is a sideways head with small SS runes below it on the chamber of a 1916 Luger. This makes no sense as the SS didn't even exist then. Further, in my opinion, why would the elite guard, the SS, settle for weapons from 1915-18? The SS days of glory were during WWII and to my knowledge, there are no death head Lugers of that era.

Johnny Peppers · 06-11-2002, 10:14 PM

Roadkill,
If the upload works, I have attached a picture of a G98 rework that came in with a bunch of import K98k's. The store that bought them farmed them out to be cleaned up. The guy that cleaned them knew that I collected a little German militaria and called me when he found this one. The markings were completely covered with grease and grime and he didn't discover them until he had cleaned the barreled action. The rifle was a total mismatch, but if any of the stampings are authentic, these would have to be. It is known that the SS used a lot of reworked G98's.

Roadkill · 06-11-2002, 10:17 PM

Good info. And very good points. Where did the connection of the totenkopf and the Waffen SS come in? Weren't the armor units also wearing the TK? Or was the TK a sub unit of the Allgemeine SS as were the KZ guards, ect? Your point makes more sense ref TK and WWI units. SS runes are something else.

RK

RK

Roadkill · 06-11-2002, 10:33 PM

Thanks for trying, I've got a DWM 98 that was reworked by adding the 98K rear sight, has S42 stamped on right side under the rear sight. What does the S42 mean? Can't be Mauser. My old German buddy who was in the Luftwaffe in WWII took his basic training with a G98.

RK

Johnny Peppers · 06-11-2002, 11:10 PM

Just like on the P08's the parts marked in that manner, or with just a 42, were Mauser replacement parts.

Ron Wood · 06-11-2002, 11:33 PM

Some of you may remember this topic of the Death Head Luger being associated with the SS on the old forum. Without restating too much of what was said before, it was pointed out that the theory in current favor is that the DH Lugers probably were associated with the Flammenwerfer units as Frank has noted. As Herb noted, the Death Head is a very old item of German heraldry awarded to units exhibiting extraordinary honor in battle. The connotation was "honor unto death" a commitment to life-long knightly honor. The Death Head Hussars were perhaps the most notable unit, being the Kaiser's personal honor guard unit. The second most recognizable unit was perhaps the 3rd Battalion, 92nd Brunswick Infantry who earned their DH during the Napoleonic conflict. The photo below shows the DH head gear of these two units. The DH Lugers were never associated with the SS.

Herb · 06-12-2002, 12:15 AM

Ron, somewhere I have a picture of Sepp Dietrich wearing the hat on the left minus tassle. He was a dashing fellow.

Herb · 06-12-2002, 12:40 AM

Herb · 06-12-2002, 12:50 AM

Message same as first attempt.

Ron Wood · 06-12-2002, 01:02 AM

Herb
Sorry about that. That is a photo of my Death Head Luger that I posted on the old forum. Don't remember what I called it though. [img]frown.gif[/img]

Herb · 06-12-2002, 01:05 AM

Great photo, Ron, but what happened to my photo? All of the info is correct.

Ron Wood · 06-12-2002, 01:17 AM

Don't know Herb. Usually when the photo doesn't come up, it is due to a typo in the name. Check the info again. These things are really touchy, have to have the correct name and it is case sensitive.

Herb · 06-12-2002, 01:27 AM

Well, I'm going to try one more time. If the photo posts it is a good comparison between the Hussar Death Head and the SS Death Head. This photo is a link on the chain of my 1936 SS officers chained dagger. Note that the skull has the entire lower jaw whereas the skull in Ron's photos show only the skull and teeth, no lower jaw. Apparently the SS decided to use the lower jaw in their depictions.

Roadkill · 06-12-2002, 12:12 PM

Outstanding photos, back to the beginning, though. If the TK wasn't associated with the SS, why would it be on a Gew 98 and who was wearing the TK in the war era? I assume you at least bought the guy lunch who found that rifle for you?

RK

Herb · 06-13-2002, 06:48 PM

RK, I think that my post may have mislead some. The Death Head is definitely associated with the SS, all of their hats had the totenkoph on them and it appeared on other items. In my previous post I intended to related that I have never seen a reference that the Lugers with the death head stamping were associated with the SS. The markings usually associated with SS Lugers are the SS runes alone or within an octagon found on the left frame panel, abover the chamber date and on the right reciever of some DWN and Mausers from 1934 to 45. I hope this is a little more explanitory of what my intent was.

06-11-2002, 10:36 AM	#1
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Death Head Question Hi All! I know it is a topic of much controversy, but I want answers! Were Death Head Lugers ever associated with the SS? Is there any surviving production numbers or similar information? If the SS was such an elite organization why would they resort to using reworks? There are so many unanswered questions, I am hoping that someone can answer just a few of them! Brandon

06-11-2002, 08:35 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,933 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,530 Times in 2,092 Posts	Good analogy RK. Brandon, from what I have read and heard, (besides Roadkills points), is that in ref to Lugers, everyone wanted to have an infamous SS weapon, so over the eyars most have been made up or look like them. From previous discussions on the Deathhead markings, there has been a mini-concensus that some markings are fake and others are from pre-WW2 era and are markings for a unit, not the SS. I just <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> don't know? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-11-2002, 09:59 PM	#6
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Another opinion. I feel that the death head (totenkopf) was never associated with the SS (Shutzstaffeln) or Defense Squadron Lugers. It has been traced as far back as 1741 when worn by the Death Head Hussars (Totenkophhusar) which were still in existence as late as 1912 and possibly later than that. The actual SS came into being by decree on 9 November 1925. There were two branches of the SS, the Allgemeine (General) SS and the Waffen SS. Nearly all of the Lugers found with the death head will be of DWM or Erfurt manufacture and will be dated between 1915 and 1918. There is supposedly an exception to this found in Costanzo's reference and that is a sideways head with small SS runes below it on the chamber of a 1916 Luger. This makes no sense as the SS didn't even exist then. Further, in my opinion, why would the elite guard, the SS, settle for weapons from 1915-18? The SS days of glory were during WWII and to my knowledge, there are no death head Lugers of that era. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

06-11-2002, 11:33 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Some of you may remember this topic of the Death Head Luger being associated with the SS on the old forum. Without restating too much of what was said before, it was pointed out that the theory in current favor is that the DH Lugers probably were associated with the Flammenwerfer units as Frank has noted. As Herb noted, the Death Head is a very old item of German heraldry awarded to units exhibiting extraordinary honor in battle. The connotation was "honor unto death" a commitment to life-long knightly honor. The Death Head Hussars were perhaps the most notable unit, being the Kaiser's personal honor guard unit. The second most recognizable unit was perhaps the 3rd Battalion, 92nd Brunswick Infantry who earned their DH during the Napoleonic conflict. The photo below shows the DH head gear of these two units. The DH Lugers were never associated with the SS. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-12-2002, 12:15 AM	#12
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Ron, somewhere I have a picture of Sepp Dietrich wearing the hat on the left minus tassle. He was a dashing fellow. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

06-11-2002, 11:14 AM	#2
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Hi Brandon, If you have a copy of Still's book on Imperial Lugers, see page 126. It gives you a pretty good idea of some of the possibilities. Since most if not all (legitimate) are WWI vintage, I would go with the theory of the "Totenkopf" Lugers were assigned to Flame Thrower Units, but that's just mt opinin!!! [img]wink.gif[/img]

06-11-2002, 08:07 PM	#3
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	The SS were not a part of the Federal German military system therefore their weapons and equipment procurement were outside of the standard Wehrmacht supply. A good example is if George Wallace would have been elected president, then he elevated the Alabama Army National Guard to a status equal with and in many cases more powerful than the US Army. All officers would be political appointees based on prior support to George and answerable only to other appointees in the same system. Then they would start their own parallel prison system without the benefit of federal/state courts and staff it with appointes answerable only to GW. GW would take funds from the US Army for pay and weapons for his army. Throw in the "fog of war" and its very difficult to determine real SS weapons from others. Any gun of that era might or might not be. The SS swore allegience only to AH, not the government. He never, and with good reason,trusted the Wehrmacht hierarchy. RK

06-11-2002, 09:47 PM	#5
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	What I was trying to say and didn't do it well, was that the SS got their guns from everywhere they could. There is probably more of a chance that a CZ27 or a Radom or a BHP or a Star or an Astra 600 were used by an SS unit as much as a P38 or a Luger, simply because of procurement problems by the SS. I've read about the SS runes being on 98Ks and seen pictures of them but as far as authenticity, as Ed said, who knows? RK

06-11-2002, 10:14 PM	#7
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Roadkill, If the upload works, I have attached a picture of a G98 rework that came in with a bunch of import K98k's. The store that bought them farmed them out to be cleaned up. The guy that cleaned them knew that I collected a little German militaria and called me when he found this one. The markings were completely covered with grease and grime and he didn't discover them until he had cleaned the barreled action. The rifle was a total mismatch, but if any of the stampings are authentic, these would have to be. It is known that the SS used a lot of reworked G98's.

06-11-2002, 10:17 PM	#8
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Good info. And very good points. Where did the connection of the totenkopf and the Waffen SS come in? Weren't the armor units also wearing the TK? Or was the TK a sub unit of the Allgemeine SS as were the KZ guards, ect? Your point makes more sense ref TK and WWI units. SS runes are something else. RK RK

06-11-2002, 10:33 PM	#9
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Thanks for trying, I've got a DWM 98 that was reworked by adding the 98K rear sight, has S42 stamped on right side under the rear sight. What does the S42 mean? Can't be Mauser. My old German buddy who was in the Luftwaffe in WWII took his basic training with a G98. RK

06-11-2002, 11:10 PM	#10
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Just like on the P08's the parts marked in that manner, or with just a 42, were Mauser replacement parts.

06-12-2002, 12:40 AM	#13
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	__________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

06-12-2002, 12:50 AM	#14
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Message same as first attempt. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

06-12-2002, 01:02 AM	#15
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Herb Sorry about that. That is a photo of my Death Head Luger that I posted on the old forum. Don't remember what I called it though. [img]frown.gif[/img] __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-12-2002, 01:05 AM	#16
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Great photo, Ron, but what happened to my photo? All of the info is correct. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

06-12-2002, 01:17 AM	#17
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Don't know Herb. Usually when the photo doesn't come up, it is due to a typo in the name. Check the info again. These things are really touchy, have to have the correct name and it is case sensitive. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-12-2002, 01:27 AM	#18
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Well, I'm going to try one more time. If the photo posts it is a good comparison between the Hussar Death Head and the SS Death Head. This photo is a link on the chain of my 1936 SS officers chained dagger. Note that the skull has the entire lower jaw whereas the skull in Ron's photos show only the skull and teeth, no lower jaw. Apparently the SS decided to use the lower jaw in their depictions. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

06-12-2002, 12:12 PM	#19
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Outstanding photos, back to the beginning, though. If the TK wasn't associated with the SS, why would it be on a Gew 98 and who was wearing the TK in the war era? I assume you at least bought the guy lunch who found that rifle for you? RK

06-13-2002, 06:48 PM	#20
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	RK, I think that my post may have mislead some. The Death Head is definitely associated with the SS, all of their hats had the totenkoph on them and it appeared on other items. In my previous post I intended to related that I have never seen a reference that the Lugers with the death head stamping were associated with the SS. The markings usually associated with SS Lugers are the SS runes alone or within an octagon found on the left frame panel, abover the chamber date and on the right reciever of some DWN and Mausers from 1934 to 45. I hope this is a little more explanitory of what my intent was. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull