LugerForum Discussion Forums my profile | register | faq | search
upload photo | donate | calendar

Go Back   LugerForum Discussion Forums > Luger Discussion Forums > Unit Markings

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 08-24-2019, 05:52 AM   #1
Joe in Colorado
User
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 71
Thanks: 102
Thanked 136 Times in 38 Posts
Default another 1913 Erfurt Police

I've been looking for an Erfurt Police rework for my small collection.

I returned one 1913 pistol because the TD lever was wrong and I got some comments from the dealer I did not agree with.

Here is another one, the same year (1913) and it's a double date.

I attached a photo of the markings, not on the grip strap this time.

Could a member please kindly let me know if these are police markings and their meaning?

Thank you, Joe
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	1913 1920 Police.jpg
Views:	59
Size:	136.0 KB
ID:	77742  

Joe in Colorado is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to Joe in Colorado for your post:
Unread 08-24-2019, 05:25 PM   #2
DonVoigt
Patron
LugerForum
Patron
 
DonVoigt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: near Charlotte NC
Posts: 4,658
Thanks: 1,416
Thanked 4,288 Times in 2,018 Posts
Default

You show early markings for the Schupo of Hanover(perhaps even Sipo).
See History writ in Steel, p 139.

These are the early 1922 style markings, and are likely quite early since they are on the left side, rather than the "standard" front grip area.

If you will post a link to the sale, we might be able to tell you more.

Since you show a serious interest in police pistols(as do I) I suggest you first buy the books:
History Writ in Steel by Don Maus, and Police Lugers by Tinker and Gruber.

These books are full of information and will help you make better choices and understand the intricate history of these pistols, their users, and the Weimar era in general. JMHO
__________________
03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector.
Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie
DonVoigt is offline   Reply With Quote
The following 5 members says Thank You to DonVoigt for your post:
Unread 08-26-2019, 05:41 AM   #3
Joe in Colorado
User
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 71
Thanks: 102
Thanked 136 Times in 38 Posts
Default

Thank you Don, of course you are right about the books, below is a link to the pistol for sale.
https://simpsonltd.com/erfurt-luger-1920-1923/
Joe in Colorado is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-26-2019, 08:29 AM   #4
DonVoigt
Patron
LugerForum
Patron
 
DonVoigt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: near Charlotte NC
Posts: 4,658
Thanks: 1,416
Thanked 4,288 Times in 2,018 Posts
Default

Thanks, I like it.
Looks pretty good and a price that is better than most at Simpson's!

If you leave it too long, it may come home to NC.
I like the unusual placement of the unit markings.
__________________
03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector.
Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie
DonVoigt is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to DonVoigt for your post:
Unread 08-27-2019, 05:58 AM   #5
Joe in Colorado
User
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 71
Thanks: 102
Thanked 136 Times in 38 Posts
Default

Thank you again Don. I would like a prewar Erfurt police rework-this is nice but I just hesitate because the straw and blue finishes are thin. I'm sure the colors would perk up a little with a coat of oil but I have bought and returned several guns lately and am a bit gun shy. I will only have one of these and may wait for a nicer, more expensive one. If you want this one please go ahead. If you have a nicer one you would sell me please let me know. Joe.
Joe in Colorado is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-27-2019, 09:28 AM   #6
Edward Tinker
Super Moderator
Eternal Lifer
LugerForum
Patron
 
Edward Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: North of Spokane, WA
Posts: 15,854
Thanks: 1,921
Thanked 4,416 Times in 2,044 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe in Colorado View Post
Thank you again Don. I would like a prewar Erfurt police rework-this is nice but I just hesitate because the straw and blue finishes are thin......Joe.
Joe, interesting gun.

I think you may be too picky - this is not a bad thing, although let me add a bit of caution, several collectors i have known over the years either wait too long (never getting the right gun) or more common, they find the perfect gun in perfect shape - and I personally have seen some very nice refinished (fake) guns called originals by dealers (Simpsons has an excellent reputation and published some of my books)


However, I have never seen these markings placed here - it would make me hesitate, but on the other hand, I can't imagine anyone faking it and putting them there.



Ed
__________________
Edward Tinker
************
Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers
Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

Edward Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-27-2019, 11:38 AM   #7
HerrKaiser
User
 
HerrKaiser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 769
Thanks: 726
Thanked 747 Times in 358 Posts
Default

I would agree with Ed about being a little picky. There were not that many Erfurts made pre-war. Fewer still survived both world wars, even fewer have stood the test of just 100 years of time with use/abuse/neglect. There can’t be that many which survived all this, were also accepted into a police configuration like this example, and still look that good too.

I totally understand wanting to have one in pristine condition for a collection. But 1 in hand is easily worth 2 in the bush. It’s not like it won’t resell if/when you find that perfect one. I’d go for it now if the price is right.
__________________
-QM

Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22
HerrKaiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-27-2019, 02:07 PM   #8
Mac Cat
Lifer
Lifetime Forum
Patron
 
Mac Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 585
Thanks: 1,787
Thanked 427 Times in 238 Posts
Default

The history and good condition of this gun is what makes it worthy of collecting and further research.
Mac Cat is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to Mac Cat for your post:
Unread 08-27-2019, 05:19 PM   #9
DonVoigt
Patron
LugerForum
Patron
 
DonVoigt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: near Charlotte NC
Posts: 4,658
Thanks: 1,416
Thanked 4,288 Times in 2,018 Posts
Default

If you read the table in Don's book, p 139; you will find that at least one other
Hn pistol is marked on the left side .

Side markings are not totally unusual, witness the early left side markings of the Land Gendarmerie of Alsace pistols and the right side marking of the Hesse pistols.
__________________
03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector.
Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie
DonVoigt is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-27-2019, 05:39 PM   #10
Don M
Patron
LugerForum
Patron
 
Don M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,429
Thanks: 67
Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts
Default

I wouldn't be concerned about the authenticity of the police property mark. I have two others from this unit in my database: unknown date/manuf. S.Hn. ][.6.26. and 1918 DWM S.Hn. ][.6.28. Both have the marking on the right frame, a large space between Hn. and ][. and use reversed brackets ][ for the Roman numeral II.

If I were still collecting, I would grab this. The markings of the Hannover Schupo are confusing but fascinating.

Joe, if you want a pristine Luger, I wouldn't look among police reworks. They generally got a good deal of use/abuse.
__________________
Regards,
Don
donmaus1@aol.com

Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936
http://www.historywritinsteel.com
Don M is offline   Reply With Quote
The following 2 members says Thank You to Don M for your post:
Unread 08-27-2019, 11:07 PM   #11
DonVoigt
Patron
LugerForum
Patron
 
DonVoigt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: near Charlotte NC
Posts: 4,658
Thanks: 1,416
Thanked 4,288 Times in 2,018 Posts
Default

The reason for the wide space between the markings is the presence of the safety bar; if "stamped" in this area it will/ would likely cause the safety bar to bind as it moves in its slot and against the back of the blank area. There is essentially no clearance between the bar and the thin side of the left area of the frame.

I just built a shooter this past week with a "ding" in that area, could not get the safety bar in place until the ding was ironed out and inside smoothed up.
__________________
03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector.
Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie
DonVoigt is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to DonVoigt for your post:
Unread 08-28-2019, 01:21 AM   #12
Norme
Always A
Lifetime Forum
Patron
 
Norme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,401
Thanks: 208
Thanked 2,543 Times in 918 Posts
Default

Interesting observation, Don. It's possible that it's for this reason that the rare, and collectible, Reichs-Gendarmerie Lugers were hand engraved and not stamped.
Regards, Norm
https://luger.gunboards.com/showthre...ch+Gendarmerie
Norme is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-28-2019, 05:35 AM   #13
Joe in Colorado
User
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 71
Thanks: 102
Thanked 136 Times in 38 Posts
Default

Thank you all again, so interesting. I will buy the pistol today.
I will post more photos once I get the pistol, if I see anything unusual inside or whatever.
Best Wishes, Joe
Joe in Colorado is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-28-2019, 09:53 AM   #14
DonVoigt
Patron
LugerForum
Patron
 
DonVoigt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: near Charlotte NC
Posts: 4,658
Thanks: 1,416
Thanked 4,288 Times in 2,018 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norme View Post
Interesting observation, Don. It's possible that it's for this reason that the rare, and collectible, Reichs-Gendarmerie Lugers were hand engraved and not stamped.
Regards, Norm
https://luger.gunboards.com/showthre...ch+Gendarmerie
Hi Norm,
If not "the" reason, then just a happy coincidence.
__________________
03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector.
Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie
DonVoigt is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-28-2019, 09:57 AM   #15
DonVoigt
Patron
LugerForum
Patron
 
DonVoigt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: near Charlotte NC
Posts: 4,658
Thanks: 1,416
Thanked 4,288 Times in 2,018 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe in Colorado View Post
Thank you all again, so interesting. I will buy the pistol today.
I will post more photos once I get the pistol, if I see anything unusual inside or whatever.
Best Wishes, Joe
Joe,
I think that is a good move.
I almost bought it yesterday, I really like the markings, but have decided I can't have "all" the marked police lugers out there.

Police unit marked Erfurt lugers and scarcer by far than marked
DWM lugers.

Now the "non-buyer's regret" is setting in!
__________________
03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector.
Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie
DonVoigt is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to DonVoigt for your post:
Unread 08-28-2019, 11:01 AM   #16
HerrKaiser
User
 
HerrKaiser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 769
Thanks: 726
Thanked 747 Times in 358 Posts
Default

Sometimes I don’t know which is worse. Buyer’s remorse, or not jumping on an opportunity. Then again, I’ve had both hit me on a single purchase decision from the winter.
__________________
-QM

Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22
HerrKaiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-28-2019, 01:26 PM   #17
Don M
Patron
LugerForum
Patron
 
Don M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,429
Thanks: 67
Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonVoigt View Post
The reason for the wide space between the markings is the presence of the safety bar; if "stamped" in this area it will/ would likely cause the safety bar to bind as it moves in its slot and against the back of the blank area. There is essentially no clearance between the bar and the thin side of the left area of the frame.

I just built a shooter this past week with a "ding" in that area, could not get the safety bar in place until the ding was ironed out and inside smoothed up.
Afraid I disagree. I have records of magazines marked with the space. I think these may have been provisional early Sipo marks that left room for later changes.
__________________
Regards,
Don
donmaus1@aol.com

Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936
http://www.historywritinsteel.com
Don M is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to Don M for your post:
Unread 08-28-2019, 04:34 PM   #18
DonVoigt
Patron
LugerForum
Patron
 
DonVoigt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: near Charlotte NC
Posts: 4,658
Thanks: 1,416
Thanked 4,288 Times in 2,018 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don M View Post
Afraid I disagree. I have records of magazines marked with the space. I think these may have been provisional early Sipo marks that left room for later changes.
Hi Don,
it could be a happy co-incidence,
but if they had stamped in the clear space it would have created the problem described.

Have you noted any with the space utilized later?

Perhaps that is why later essentially all markings moved to the grip frame?
__________________
03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector.
Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie
DonVoigt is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-28-2019, 04:39 PM   #19
Don M
Patron
LugerForum
Patron
 
Don M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,429
Thanks: 67
Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonVoigt View Post
Have you noted any with the space utilized later?
No. Could be that the provisional marks turned out to be adequate. Hannover is a very confusing district.
__________________
Regards,
Don
donmaus1@aol.com

Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936
http://www.historywritinsteel.com
Don M is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-22-2023, 03:09 PM   #20
Joe in Colorado
User
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 71
Thanks: 102
Thanked 136 Times in 38 Posts
Default another like-marked Police pistol

It's over 2 years since this thread and I finally found another pistol with similar markings for sale at Legacy, link below.
The exact marking was mentioned above, here is a photo and link to the pistol for sale-unfortunately the stock lug was ground off. Cheers, Joe
https://www.legacy-collectibles.com/...ems/24258.html
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	2023-03-21_216.jpg
Views:	11
Size:	57.5 KB
ID:	86586  

Joe in Colorado is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to Joe in Colorado for your post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 1998 - 2023, Lugerforum.com