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Unread 03-04-2019, 07:21 AM   #1
CptCurl
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Default 1900 Swiss Rear Toggle Link Replaced?

This is a current listing on GB I was looking at. The seller is quite proud of this pistol, going by the description. Link: Luger, 1900 Swiss, Military, Wide Trigger, Holster

I was alarmed to notice the rear toggle link with no knurling. There's no mention of it in the description.

What could it be? Did the Swiss arsenal adapt an 06/29 rear toggle link as a replacement on a 1900? Does anybody have an idea what might cause the failure of a rear toggle link; and thus, its replacement? I would think this is a pretty robust part.

Or if I'm all wet, please tell me so. I am no expert.

Here's a copy and paste quote of the GB description:
Beautiful, scarce and highly desirable M1900 Swiss Luger, military, with wide trigger, usually found in the 3000-4000 serial range with holster. SN: 4082. Cal: 30 Luger. Standard configuration with 4.75 tapered barrel with drift adjustable front sight and fixed rear sight. Flat top breech block, with toggle train having dished ears and anti-rebound arm. Chamber marked with Swiss cross in sunburst. Intertwined DWM on middle toggle link. Small Swiss proofs on left side of barrel, left receiver, and back of frame. Full serial number under barrel and forward frame. All small parts correctly serialed except takedown lever that is unmarked. Usual strawed small parts. Finely checkered walnut grips, both panels matching. Correct original magazine, unmarked with base having inserted disks. Complete with brown leather holster having ownership identification inside lid, now fitted with spare magazine pouch. Obverse surface with ownership and manufacturer marking, dated 1905. Condition: At least 98% arsenal blue, with particularly crisp grip straps, the rear having a spot of holster wear at the base. All the strawed and fire blued parts have been freshened. Very bright, nearly mirror, bore. Perfect manual mechanics. Near excellent holster with supple leather. Forward belt loop beginning to separate. No suggestion of restitching. An extremely attractive example of one of the most desirable M1900 Swiss Military Lugers. A HISTORIC INVESTMENT! A-34
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Unread 03-04-2019, 08:55 AM   #2
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I agree with your question. All the original M1900 rear toggle links that I've seen, do have some knurlling on the forward edge on both sides. The only explanation that comes to mind, is that on your M1900 #4082 that the Swiss may have removed the knurlling during a rework. TH
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Unread 03-04-2019, 10:53 AM   #3
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Not uncommon to see fixed/repaired parts on Swiss lugers. If they needed fixing, they were fixed, that simple.

If original parts were not available, more recent spares were used.

Replaced rear toggles are not uncommon, and because they switched to non-checkered rear toggles in 1929, that is what they used for repairs after that time. Since these look different from the originals, it catches the eye. Other repairs are not that visible.
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Unread 03-05-2019, 10:22 AM   #4
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Both responses agree that the rear toggle link is a replacement, evidently crafted from a later part consistent with the post-1929 toggles used by the Swiss in Lugers they manufactured. That is exactly what I had thought.

My secondary question asked, "Does anybody have an idea what might cause the failure of a rear toggle link; and thus, its replacement? I would think this is a pretty robust part."

I'm still trying to get my head around what could cause a rear toggle link to fail. I am no engineer, nor a gunsmith. I've owned and shot a fair number of Lugers, but I've never seen one that gave indication of trouble in the toggle train. Can anybody add light to this?

Thanks,
Curl

P.S. This is not my gun, and I have no intention of buying or attempting to buy it. I ask these questions only to learn. This is the only old model Luger I have ever seen or heard of that had smooth toggle ears.
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Unread 03-05-2019, 01:15 PM   #5
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Cracks in the rear toogle were not uncommon among pistols in 1900 and 1900/06. As Vlim has already mentioned, the defective parts were often replaced by rear toogles of pistols 06/29. This was done by the W+F but also by local gunsmith.

This pistol 1900/06 (W+F, SN 18251) was repaired by the W+F in the 1940's . The owner of the gun was the Director of the M+F (ammunition factory in Thun, Switzerland).

Alexander
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Unread 03-05-2019, 01:22 PM   #6
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Why would it fail?
Possibly:
-imperfections(inclusions) in the steel, not visible from the outside
- stress crack from forging, too small to see until it "grows" with use
- abuse(heavy/hot loads or many thousands of rounds fired".

Most cracks originate from sharp (square) inside corners, where firing stresses can be concentrated.
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Unread 03-05-2019, 04:18 PM   #7
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Thanks for these explanations. I really appreciate your replies.

Curl
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Unread 03-05-2019, 05:57 PM   #8
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We need to make this thread a "sticky" for it's excellent reference information.

Thanks to the posters...
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Unread 03-05-2019, 08:29 PM   #9
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Could it be from some commemorative 1900 Mauser 70' ?
And the grip safety , not half sise at rear?
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Unread 03-06-2019, 06:19 AM   #10
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Commemorative Mausers were checkered.
Only a few pre production Mauser Parabellums had smooth toggle knobs. Normal production and commemoratives all had checkered knobs.

Grip safety looks normal to me, but could be a 1906 style replacement.

But one of the reasons Mauser was allowed to take over Swiss tools and drawings in the late 1960s was that W+F had the possibility to have Mauser make spares when needed. I found a few hints about it in the archives but no clear evidence that Mauser actually supplied parts to Bern.

As late as 1969 W+F asked about model 1900 leaf springs... which Mauser could not deliver, as they didn't make them.
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Unread 10-26-2020, 10:59 PM   #11
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Curl, In the early 80s i saw a 1900 Swiss with that exact rear toggle. It was marked on the underside E25+ (like 4082). I assumed it was a replacement part made in 1925 specifically for old model Lugers. Never saw another till now. Unfortunately I didn't record the info.
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Unread 10-27-2020, 11:49 AM   #12
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Hi CptCurl

Wow ... what a beautiful gun. Do we know what it eventually went for ??

Often times when i see a gun thats hard to place I use this site as a reference.
http://www.germandaggers.com/Gallery/GL1.php

1900 Swiss Sunburst - produced 1900-1902 Production for Switzerland, Military and Commercial
comes the closest but still has knurling. I like Vlim's and Lugerdoc's replies and I love the gun
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Unread 10-27-2020, 12:16 PM   #13
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E25+ refers to the steel type used.
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Unread 10-27-2020, 12:52 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spangy View Post
Hi CptCurl

Wow ... what a beautiful gun. Do we know what it eventually went for ??

Often times when i see a gun thats hard to place I use this site as a reference.
http://www.germandaggers.com/Gallery/GL1.php

1900 Swiss Sunburst - produced 1900-1902 Production for Switzerland, Military and Commercial
comes the closest but still has knurling. I like Vlim's and Lugerdoc's replies and I love the gun
Spangy,
That is an excellent reference site, thank you for the link. I need to find something similar for Luger magazines now, as they can be confusing at times.
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Unread 10-27-2020, 03:05 PM   #15
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Be very careful with this website. Nice pictures but the descriptions are full of misinformation.


--Dwight
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Unread 10-27-2020, 04:09 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber View Post
Be very careful with this website. Nice pictures but the descriptions are full of misinformation.


--Dwight
I just noticed that while scanning through the webpage
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Unread 10-27-2020, 06:01 PM   #17
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The original post photos show a neat modification to the 06/29 flat toggle knobs to appear more like the original sculpted 1900 style. Reminds me of similar machining that Sheepherder was experimenting with a while back.
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Unread 10-29-2020, 12:35 PM   #18
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If the early link was armoror swapped for a 29 why would they machine it and install the lever
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Unread 10-30-2020, 01:08 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proofed View Post
If the early link was armoror swapped for a 29 why would they machine it and install the lever
Good point. Perhaps the work was done by a commercial gunsmith who was instructed to retain the functioning toggle lock? Or is the new rear link an aftermarket M1900 replacement?
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Unread 10-30-2020, 10:03 AM   #20
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Because the specifications for the Model 1900 say so.
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